Charas-Project

Off-Topic => Really Old Stuff => Archive => General programming => Topic started by: Osmose on March 24, 2006, 03:12:26 PM

Title: Why Programming is better than RPG Maker
Post by: Osmose on March 24, 2006, 03:12:26 PM

 (http://mercury.walagata.com/w/osmose/supermario2.zip)

The above is a Mario clone I made in Visual Basic. It took me two days to complete just as a fun project. It uses timers, simple math, and a function called BitBlt that I will go into later if anyone wants to know more about it.

This is the flexibility of programming. All of the limits that are put on you by RPG Maker are gone. No 50 picture limit, no long, complicated efforst to make a custom battle system or custom menu system, everything is made by you, and you have 100% complete control over your game.

This is why, if you learn a programming language, you'll be able to make your game ten times better than it is. Hell, you can still use RPG Maker graphics - it's up to you how you store the graphics you use in your game. Sure, it's more work, but the end result will be stunning.

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Post by: rush_fan on March 24, 2006, 03:23:30 PM

Isn't RMXP easy to script with?

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Post by: Osmose on March 24, 2006, 03:31:06 PM

Not really. At first it seems like it's great, but the documentation, at least as far as I can see, is terrible. Ruby Script has very few commands and has a lot of built in variables that you don't know about. And even with it, you're still limited by constraints that come from being linked to the RPG system. I mean, sure, you could make a Mario-type game or a Shooter in RMXP if you tried hard enough, but it's really pointless when you could program it in an actual language.

At that point the only reason to do it in RMXP is to stick to RPG Maker. Which is kind of dumb if you're going to go that far.

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Post by: Drighton on March 24, 2006, 05:14:16 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Osmose
This is why, if you learn a programming language, you'll be able to make your game ten times better than it is. Hell, you can still use RPG Maker graphics - it's up to you how you store the graphics you use in your game. Sure, it's more work, but the end result will be stunning.

I can attest to this. I've debated whether or not to provide my code on my stalled project as a learning tool, but decided against it when I realized it would probably not be used. Maybe I should rethink that. What you think Osmose?

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Post by: Noobpwner on March 24, 2006, 05:20:15 PM

what program language did you use Im thinking of learning a program language and this one looks good...

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Post by: Osmose on March 24, 2006, 05:22:41 PM

That was VB 6. The two stickies have links to everything you need to get started.

Drighton - that'd be a great idea. I learned a lot of what I know from looking at snippets of others' code.

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Post by: Noobpwner on March 24, 2006, 05:28:06 PM

k tnx

EDIT:  Just one question I know html and some ruby will that help atall?

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Post by: Osmose on March 24, 2006, 05:44:55 PM

HTML won't but Ruby will.

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Post by: Noobpwner on March 24, 2006, 07:20:08 PM

uhh I downloaded windows visual basic but I cant make exacutabl;e files... And in the explanation it says I need to make an exe!!

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Post by: Drighton on March 24, 2006, 07:28:52 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Osmose
Drighton - that'd be a great idea. I learned a lot of what I know from looking at snippets of others' code.

Cool. Just looking at my code may get me fired up again. I know thinking about it makes me wish I could manage to finish it.

Also, nice Mario.

Quote

Originally posted by Noobpwner
uhh I downloaded windows visual basic but I cant make exacutabl;e files... And in the explanation it says I need to make an exe!!

I'd help in a heartbeat if I knew what it was Osmose told you to download. :) In that, I mean that I've never used that software before.

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Post by: DragonBlaze on March 24, 2006, 07:30:03 PM

Well rm2k3 isn't all bad, its a good thing to start off with because it does teach a lot of things on game developement. Not so much on coding besides some mathamatical algorithms and formulas that are used a lot, but more along the lines of game progression, map design, story developement, and all that good stuff.

I agree that an actual programming language would be much better to use though. I have Dark Basic and I'm trying to work with that a little, but I'm mainly concerned on learning C++ at the moment. Its horible to make games with, but I think its good to learn. I learned Qbasic a while ago, so learning VB shouldn't be that bad.

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Post by: Drighton on March 24, 2006, 07:35:29 PM

VB worked out well for me because it actually is Visual. You can see what your developing as you go along.

Click the button tool. Click and drag on form to create button. Double click newly created button to open code window. As you can imagine, when you click on that button in runtime, the code you put in it will execute.

You can make some nice applications with VB, and even the tools themselves provide a way to make a decent game within the dialog. I came up with some nice methods too.

Just keep in mind that the more objects (buttons, picture boxes, etc) you put on the Form the larger your exe will be. Imbedding pictures in picture boxes will do that also.

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Post by: PyroAlchemist on March 24, 2006, 11:36:22 PM

I'm tinkering with C++ at the moment. It's a pretty fun programming language and is prettty easy also.

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Post by: g3k0 on April 19, 2006, 05:57:35 PM

Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but I felt I needed to clarify a great injustice to the c++ language.

Quote

Originally posted by DragonBlaze
... but I'm mainly concerned on learning C++ at the moment. Its horible to make games with, but I think its good to learn. I learned Qbasic a while ago, so learning VB shouldn't be that bad.

C++ is NOT horrible to make games.  C++ is the game industries standard.  It may not be the easiest, but it is certainly the most powerful and most efficient if programmed correctly.  VB on the other hand is terrible for games.  Basic certainly is not a great choice either.  If you have no programming experience I would certainly recommend  Visual Basic though, being that it is not as hard to understand.
As for whether  a game maker or programming is better, I think everyone agrees that programming has the most flexability and power.  It would be ignorant to say otherwise.  I would also like to add that a person can hardly claim they made a game when it was not programmed.  

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Post by: Osmose on April 19, 2006, 07:53:25 PM

We were actually going to look at the Quake 3 source in the pitiful excuse of a programming class I'm in right now, but we ended up just playing it for a few months instead. Yay for school LAN. :)

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Post by: DragonBlaze on April 19, 2006, 09:04:57 PM

Quote

Originally posted by g3k0
Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but I felt I needed to clarify a great unjustice to the c++ language.

quote:

Originally posted by DragonBlaze ... but I'm mainly concerned on learning C++ at the moment. Its horible to make games with, but I think its good to learn. I learned Qbasic a while ago, so learning VB shouldn't be that bad.

C++ is NOT horrible to make games.  C++ is the game industries standard.  It may not be the easiest, but it is certainly the most powerful and most efficient if programmed correctly.  VB on the other hand is terrible for games.  Basic certainly is not a great choice either.  If you have no programming experience I would certainly recommend  Visual Basic though, being that it is not as hard to understand.
As for whether  a game maker or programming is better, I think everyone agrees that programming has the most flexability and power.  It would be ignorant to say otherwise.  I would also like to add that a person can hardly claim they made a game when it was not programmed.  RPG makers are to programmers as script kiddies are to true hackers... wannabes.  Sorry for flaming, I had to get that off my chest.  I only registered an account to make this post so banning me will not matter. :para:

Sorry, when I said C++ is horrible for making games with, I meant its a lot harder and longer to do so. Yeah, its probably better than most other languages out there, but I prefer the easy short way for now as I don't know much about programming. The easy short way for me is using Dark Basic, which seems to be very easy compared to most other things, so I'm going to use it to teach myself how to code games.

Example, to print "hi!" on the screen in C++ you have to...

#include

void main()
{
    cout << "hi!";
}

In Dark Basic (and i'm guessing pretty much every form of basic), to print hi! All you have to do is...

print "hi!"

I don't know how to load an image in C++, but I imagine its a lengthy process, I know in qbasic it took 20 lines to do so, in dark basic all that is needed is..

load image "image.bmp", 1

So C++ isn't 'horrible' its just horrible to use for most independent game makers, mainly/especially the ones that are noobs at programming (like me :p)

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Post by: g3k0 on April 20, 2006, 12:12:31 AM

Ah, your response makes me feel stupid for blowing up and spelling injustice incorrectly.  Sorry about that  :|

Pertaining to difficulty of a language, it all depends on what level you are programming at.  In most languages there are different levels (im not reffering to complexity). Let me explain..

The "top level" would be useing the IDE's interface to make the game (dragging a button onto a form like in Visual Basic).  This is the easiest level to program at.

Drop a level down and you are using a graphics library such as DirectX, OpenGL, SDL etc

Drop a level down and this is where you are using things such as Cout <<" "; but you would need to get alot more complex and probably would not use that command.

Drop a level down and now you are using assembly language

Drop a level down and you are using machine language (1's and 0's)

The lower the level you are programming at, the more control of a program you have, but this also means you have to program many more lines of code.  It will also be more complex and difficult (that is if it is going to look exactly the same).

At the top level programming languages are very similar.  You have buttons, shapes, picture boxes, and all sorts of other controls (if you have the right IDE).  Examples of this are Visual basic, Borland developer studio 2006 (includes Delphi, c++ , and .. java?) and Visual Studio 2005 (C#,C++,Java,VB).  

I do not know much about dark basic, I am assuming its similar to a lower level of VB.  If you are programming at this level, I would agree that a form of basic such as this is certainly easier to understand and less to write.  


I forget where I was going with this...

Anyway..  C++ still is not "horrible" for an independant game maker.  Most downloadable games you find on free game sites are probably made in c++ by one person.  It just depends on how well you know the language and what level you are programming at. ;)

---edit----
I just looked up dark basic, it appears it is much different than what I thought it would be like.  It looks like you should do pretty well with it, being that game creation is what it is intended for.

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Post by: Osmose on April 20, 2006, 01:19:12 AM

I'm at that level above cout, although I certainly know how to do basic C++ command line stuff. Never got into GUIs, though.

The mario clone featured in this thread is the best thing I've made in VB, simply because I never really get into an idea long enough to push it to completiong. I wish I could at least smooth this game down, though. :

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Post by: DragonBlaze on April 21, 2006, 02:20:57 AM

Lol, well I'm trying to work my way into the cout << and the level above (and/or the one above that, I don't know which one Dark Basic falls under, I guess it doesn't matter too much). I'm taking classes for C++ at school, and I'm learning DB independently at home. I just downloaded 53 tutorials that takes you through the basic stuff such as variables, conditional branches, all the way to 3d graphics design, matricies, effects, etc, and then 30 tuts dedicated to making a game from start to finish. I wasted a LOT of paper doing so :p But oh well, in two days I learned how to use DB better than C++ which I've been taking classes in for 4 months now. The class kinda pisses me off since we go extreamly slow. The last week, we haven't done any programming, the week before was all free days to just catch up on our programs (which I already had done).

I 'know' C++ is practically the best language out there to use for just about everything, but personally, I just don't like it. Its partially because our class goes so slow, we have to do a lot of programs that just go over the same thing again and again and again, and because its a lot more work than I'm used to.

Example, today we learned about strings! In order to input and print a message more than one character, I have to put a bunch of lines of coding rather than to just type the input.

I'm sure i'll come to like it a little later down the line.

Anyway, I'll refrase my statement once again :p

I think C++ is horrible for me to make games with at this point in time with my current scripting knowlage ;)

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Post by: Osmose on April 21, 2006, 02:45:57 AM

That's because the first string format you learn in C++ is the wonderful char. Strings are basically arrays of char. A nifty way of looking at the structure of a string, but still not something those of us introduced to VB and such first will enjoy.

But hey, at least your learning something at all. Granted, I enjoy getting practice on my rocket jumping. :P