Post by: Desimodontidae on May 03, 2006, 01:13:02 AM
Post by: Meiscool-2 on May 03, 2006, 01:17:28 AM
Post by: Desimodontidae on May 03, 2006, 01:21:37 AM
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Originally posted by Meiscool
They say "day" is just a metaphore. Meaning, each day took millions of years, and the dinosaurs just happened to die durring the 5th day.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Post by: Glitch on May 03, 2006, 01:23:14 AM
If you talk to an intelligent christian, you will learn that some believe that Dinosaurs did infact exist before people. It's believed they lived on earth in the time before people were created.
NOw, you're prolly wondering, wait, so they only lived a few days?
However, in the bible it says that our sense of time, and God's sense of time, are incredibly different. A couple hours to us is like a thousand years to him. So the bible says seven days, and to God it prolly was 7 days, to us, it could be hundreds of thousands of years.
Well, it's up to you to believe that or not... however.
Be warned, do not provoke fights about Religion on the internet, or real life. I answered you calmly, but many people will take offense at this. Quite frankly, let's face it, you posted this as a way to provoke a fight. Please, just don't do stuff like this.
Post by: Tomi on May 03, 2006, 01:40:52 AM
Post by: Kijuki_Magazaki on May 03, 2006, 01:49:30 AM
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This is kind of under debate. IF you talk to what I like to call a CRP (crazy religous person) than they will give you some answer that makes no sense.
If you talk to an intelligent christian, you will learn that some believe that Dinosaurs did infact exist before people. It's believed they lived on earth in the time before people were created.
NOw, you're prolly wondering, wait, so they only lived a few days?
However, in the bible it says that our sense of time, and God's sense of time, are incredibly different. A couple hours to us is like a thousand years to him. So the bible says seven days, and to God it prolly was 7 days, to us, it could be hundreds of thousands of years.
Well, it's up to you to believe that or not... however.
Be warned, do not provoke fights about Religion on the internet, or real life. I answered you calmly, but many people will take offense at this.
Indeed, I agreed mostly with that, specially in the time sequence, but I do still believe dinosaurs existed when man was created. And true, do not post in here if you can't argue decently.
And thanks Glitch. ;) Just dont jump to conclusions.
And I don't think that dinosaurs lived in the past is actually a fact yet. EDIT: I take that back to wonder the definition of dinosaurs through everyone.
Post by: Glitch on May 03, 2006, 01:57:56 AM
No problem, and I'll try not to.
Post by: Big_Duke on May 03, 2006, 01:58:02 AM
Maybe not.
I'm a (luther)an.
^
MARTIN LUTHER.
If you have no idea who Luther is, watch the movie.
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on May 03, 2006, 02:03:38 AM
Post by: Kijuki_Magazaki on May 03, 2006, 02:04:57 AM
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Originally posted by Big_Duke
Maybe they mean the god telling them what to do is like the little voices talking in your head while you're drinking and spilling coke all over myself watching TV.
I completely have no idea what you are talking about.
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Yeah, I gotta admit that I've never been entirely sure if they actualy were there when people were created, I suppose it prolly doesn't have a big effect on the grand scale of things, but it's still one of those things that bugs you in the back of your mind.
No problem, and I'll try not to.
I never put much thought into it, except that day that I put myself to wonder about it. I asked my father about it, who is generally balanced on the theory on dinosaurs, but went on giving me a lesson on something else.
But yeah I don't think it makes much difference, some people (christian and non-christian) don't even believe there was dinosaurs at all. So this pretty much comes down on the belief on dinosaurs rather than being christian in a whole scale.
But since it involves both, I gave my answer... I think.
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You have to remember, the complete bible is 1000s of years old. Bits were left out or added as the writer saw fit. Somewhere there may be a lost passage about Jesus sister.
Is not lost; it's in there =P it talks about his brothers too (2 I think, or it didn't mention forgot) in some point.
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on May 03, 2006, 02:13:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kijuki_Magazaki
quote: Originally posted by Big_Duke
Maybe they mean the god telling them what to do is like the little voices talking in your head while you're drinking and spilling coke all over myself watching TV.
I completely have no idea what you are talking about.
quote: Yeah, I gotta admit that I've never been entirely sure if they actualy were there when people were created, I suppose it prolly doesn't have a big effect on the grand scale of things, but it's still one of those things that bugs you in the back of your mind.
No problem, and I'll try not to.
I never put much thought into it, except that day that I put myself to wonder about it. I asked my father about it, who is generally balanced on the theory on dinosaurs, but went on giving me a lesson on something else.
But yeah I don't think it makes much difference, some people (christian and non-christian) don't even believe there was dinosaurs at all. So this pretty much comes down on the belief on dinosaurs rather than being christian in a whole scale.
But since it involves both, I gave my answer... I think.
quote: You have to remember, the complete bible is 1000s of years old. Bits were left out or added as the writer saw fit. Somewhere there may be a lost passage about Jesus sister.
Is not lost; it's in there =P it talks about his brothers too (2 I think, or it didn't mention forgot) in some point.
Well, you get the point XD For all we know there was an old passage detailing the dinosaurs and their creation, but because they were no longer around, some author down the line decided to remove it in his version.
Post by: Kijuki_Magazaki on May 03, 2006, 02:19:03 AM
A lot of animals in the Bible are mention as plain "beasts" or something like that in English. (I've only read the Bible in Spanish, but I am sure "bestias" is "beasts" in English) so we don't know for sure if many of those "beasts" were dinosaurs or not.
Post by: Archem on May 03, 2006, 02:20:17 AM
Post by: Kijuki_Magazaki on May 03, 2006, 02:26:10 AM
Maybe they DID mention them, but is not mentioned in the sense to understood; going back to the whole "beasts" thing.
However they did know what a dragon and lizards and other scaled living things were. For it is made reference to them in some part.
Post by: Desimodontidae on May 03, 2006, 02:44:55 AM
I just read from a christian site ( http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp) ) that said Dinosaurs and humans co-existed in biblical time. They were even on the ark. It has references to the actual bible verses. Now Noah's ark was what, no more than a few thousand years? But dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. Their argument is as follows:
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The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. According to evolutionists, the dinosaurs ‘ruled the Earth’ for 140 million years, dying out about 65 million years ago. However, scientists do not dig up anything labeled with those ages. They only uncover dead dinosaurs (i.e., their bones), and their bones do not have labels attached telling how old they are. The idea of millions of years of evolution is just the evolutionists’ story about the past. No scientist was there to see the dinosaurs live through this supposed dinosaur age. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that the world and its fossil layers are millions of years old. No scientist observed dinosaurs die. Scientists only find the bones in the here and now, and because many of them are evolutionists, they try to fit the story of the dinosaurs into their view.
From that, I get they're trying to say that modern science can't prove the dinosaurs died out that long ago because they didn't see it happening. First of all, we have a little process called "carbon-14 dating" they seem to be dodging. This basically proves the above theory wrong, seeing as how no human and dinosaur's approxamate age's are even close. Second, there are tons of things we have proved even though we can't see them. Like waves for example. Sound, EM, etc. We can't SEE these things, but we know they happen, right?
Of course, if you read that article, it's extremly biased, condescending, and somewhat mocking "evolutionary scientists" as they would put it. But it still contains the biblical information.
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on May 03, 2006, 02:48:06 AM
Post by: Kijuki_Magazaki on May 03, 2006, 02:59:15 AM
I, myself, am a bit skeptic on how old this earth is.
65 millions years is just too huge of a number (year wise) to exactly convince myself that this earth has been around for that long. With meteorites and all, I mean we are supposed to be hit by a world destroying asteriod in a hundred years from now, so I question myself if that could've happened really between all these supposed millions of years.
However in the Bible it does mention that the eEarth was filled with darkness before God acted upon it. Many things to theorize on.
But you also have to know that the 65 million years is a theory and not fact. Yes I know that other things I've mentioned are too but theories. But we are generally trying to do that here; since we are not going to come up with facts.
EDIT: True to that Kirby.
In essence, there's way more mystery in our waters that in the moon.
We can dig up a lot of answers if we just swim a bit deeper.
Post by: drenrin2120 on May 03, 2006, 03:18:02 AM
Post by: Kijuki_Magazaki on May 03, 2006, 03:19:43 AM
All i know and believe is that they existed sometime in the past.
How? I don't know XD
Well they still exist today... Crocodiles are dinosaurs, did you not know?!
Also, lochness... We might still have dinosaurs living in our waters.
Post by: drenrin2120 on May 03, 2006, 03:26:33 AM
rrr.... It gets me so frustrated. But this is about dinos. I think they existed, of course they existed, we dug up they're friggin' bones! But if they were in the bible, I'd be skeptical, because dinosaurs were onyl discovered within the last two hundred years. Unless god told Jesus about them, I don't see how they'd get into the bible. The answers are out there, maybe the catholic church with holds scrolls, or the location of secret gospels. I have no way of knowing.
Post by: Prpl_Mage on May 03, 2006, 04:22:13 AM
s, and pretty strict ones too.
And apperantly the deny every peice of evidence that dinosaurs actually existed(along with everything that say that god doesn´t exist)... They bann TV-shows witch involved dinosaurs and doesn´t let their kids to play with dino-toys.
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Originally posted by Kijuki_Magazaki
Well they still exist today... Crocodiles are dinosaurs, did you not know?!
Also, lochness... We might still have dinosaurs living in our waters.
Well, every animal that lays eggs are somewhere along evolution relatives to the dinosaurs. Even the birds are...
Post by: Razor on May 03, 2006, 05:57:46 AM
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Originally posted by Kijuki_Magazaki
65 millions years is just too huge of a number (year wise) to exactly convince myself that this earth has been around for that long. With meteorites and all, I mean we are supposed to be hit by a world destroying asteriod in a hundred years from now, so I question myself if that could've happened really between all these supposed millions of years.
Space is huge. Huger than XBox. There's a microscopic chance of us being hit by a meteor that could destroy us. But there was one big enough to damage the environment for an unsightly amount of time, which brought on the Ice Age. No, not that movie *shudder*
And to make argument about the age of the universe, I did some research on stars and stuff the other year, scientists have a lot of information on time due to spreading out of stuff, stars, and a lot of things.
And I 100% agree with Desi, as far a carbon-dating goes and everything he said on that first page.
Post by: Drace on May 03, 2006, 08:13:41 AM
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Originally posted by drenrin2120
My idea was kinda likes Archems. God was experimenting, and when he was done killed them off. But that seems kinda heartless of god, but idk. I wasn't alive 65 million years ago.
My 'theory' is a bit the same. If God does exist, I think he created the Dinosaurs as his 'first' dominate race. But when the planet got hit by a meteor (or whatever made them extinct), he decided to make his next species more advanced, so they can fight it later on might another meteor (or whatever) come.
If God does not exist, it's simply evolution etc. etc. scientist explanation. Or a mix of both. I mean, did God came down to Earth to write the Bible? Dinosaurs were discovered in the 1900s, there's no way for them in the ol' days to know.
EDIT: I did totally not read Dren's last post.
Post by: Drighton on May 03, 2006, 12:09:09 PM
When I think about the time difference of a day to humans and a day to God, a few things come to mind. First, people accept the lifespan of a cat being 1 cat year = 7 human years.
I also recall being younger and time going by much slower. A school day used to be FOREVER.
Most people, even on the Simpsons, portray God as a huge person. Following the line of reason, X years = 1 human day doesn't seem unreasonable.
But perhaps it isn't related to size. Age could also have a determining factor. As I mentioned, days fly by now, no matter what I'm doing. My parents will sometimes comment on how the years have flown by (nostalgic period where they think of my childhood). For someone who has lived for who knows how long, God probably sees the centuries fly by like nothing.
My theory about dinosaurs is that God used them to fertilize the Earth before man was created. The Bible doesn't go into detail about His methods of designing the Earth and decorating it, it just says He did. If dinosaurs fit anywhere, its in that first line of the Bible.
Much like the animals today take part in a process to pollinate and spread seed, the dinosaurs would naturally have helped in the same process.
Post by: WarxePB on May 03, 2006, 12:22:57 PM
As for dinos... I agree with most of you that the 'days' described in the Bible were way longer. But, as Desi said, that seems kind of like an excuse. So I'm open to pretty much any theory, so long as it doesn't bash my beliefs.
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on May 03, 2006, 01:08:26 PM
Post by: Drace on May 03, 2006, 01:18:36 PM
- day."? Unless the sun took thousands of years to go under and rise again it means that these days are just normal days.
But the Bible has been wrong on other things. The sun going around the earth for example. This IS proven a wrong fact. So what if these 'days' things were more... centuries? Or millenia (correct word?)? Or maybe even million of years?
Scientists say it took a LOOOOONG time for the planet to become what it is today.
First he created the skies and the earth, this could be like the Big Bang theory. This WAS created at first too.
Next he made sure there was water on the planet. According to scientists, there was a period in early Earth years that it rained for a bloody long time.
Next he created light. According to scientists, the Sun was created along with the Earth during the Big Bang. My opinion, why not create light BEFORE working on your lil' planet? Maybe God created the light before the planet. Would be a lot usefuller.
Next he seperated the two water from above with the water from under. Ok, personally, WTF? Does this mean he seperated the sea from the rain? If so, it also fits in with the theories of scientists. Like, it stopped raining after some time. From then it occasionally rained. Thus, the waters are seperated.
Well, you people can fit in the other days for yourself, but if you look it my way, there can be a mix between both God and science.
"What Drace? So all of a sudden you turned more religous?
No you crazy mofu. I believe that there's something out there, either a god or something else, that created us. I just don't believe in the God of Christ or the whole Bible thing.
My "believes" about the creation of everything and all are that a "god" set it all in motion. That evolution is in the plan of this "god". Along with Dinosaurs etc.
Wheter this "god" still exists or not, I don't care. I just think there was some über-creature that set it all in motion.
Who know? We might even be a tv-show for some aliens. Let's just hope we don't get cancelled soon, aye Trey Parker and Matt Stone?
Post by: Sephiroth rocks on May 03, 2006, 02:14:17 PM
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Heres a question: How did they decide that the entire universe was 15 billion years old?
Since radiation has a fixed speed (300.000 km/s) you can find out when the radiation was originally sent out from the object by looking at the object's distance. Scientists has found out that it's impossible to look further away than 15 billion light years thus meaning that the radiation from objects further away hasn't reached the earth yet meaning that universe must be 15 billion years old.
Actually if you look at the theories you discover that they're much more well-documented than many thinks. They don't just make stuff up like religions do.
Post by: WarxePB on May 03, 2006, 02:25:30 PM
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Sephy
Actually if you look at the theories you discover that they're much more well-documented than many thinks. They don't just make stuff up like religions do.
Remember that even mythological legends are based in fact. For example, Jesus almost undoubtebly existed, but whether he was actually the Son of God or not is up to debate.
Post by: Desimodontidae on May 03, 2006, 06:17:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sephiroth rocks
quote: Heres a question: How did they decide that the entire universe was 15 billion years old?
Since radiation has a fixed speed (300.000 km/s) you can find out when the radiation was originally sent out from the object by looking at the object's distance. Scientists has found out that it's impossible to look further away than 15 billion light years thus meaning that the radiation from objects further away hasn't reached the earth yet meaning that universe must be 15 billion years old.
Actually if you look at the theories you discover that they're much more well-documented than many thinks. They don't just make stuff up like religions do.
That is correct, except you mean "light" not "radiation".
Personally, I think much of the bible was left ambiguous purposly. Like reasons such as this, so you can come up with convienient biblical explanations for things that don't seem to fit in the strictly interpretated Bible.
Kind of like how Nostradamus worded his predictions metaphorically, so when something happens that can kind of relate, people think "OMG It's just like what Nastradamus predicted!!!11"
Post by: Zerlina on May 03, 2006, 07:02:19 PM
I can't speak for other Christians, because I'm Catholic, but I know in Catholicism, the bible isn't supposed to be taken literally.
My interpretation is that The Garden of Eden story could be a story about growing up.
When you're a child, you live in a sort of paradise where everything is good. Once you're older and become more aware, you begin to question things, and learn about evil in the world. After this you can't go back to the paradise and innocence of childhood. It's as if you're banished.
Ok I just typed that and remembered it's a different story. ^^'
Post by: Osmose on May 03, 2006, 07:14:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Sephiroth rocks
quote: Heres a question: How did they decide that the entire universe was 15 billion years old?
Since radiation has a fixed speed (300.000 km/s) you can find out when the radiation was originally sent out from the object by looking at the object's distance. Scientists has found out that it's impossible to look further away than 15 billion light years thus meaning that the radiation from objects further away hasn't reached the earth yet meaning that universe must be 15 billion years old.
Actually if you look at the theories you discover that they're much more well-documented than many thinks. They don't just make stuff up like religions do.
That's all fine and well if you assume that the Earth is at the center of the Universe, which most people are pretty sure we're not. If they consistantly cannot look farther than 15 billion light years away (And I'm even a bit skeptical as to the range of Hubble, or whatever they use if they don't use Hubble anymore), than they may just be hitting the maximum range of the telescope. Certainly it is convincing proof that the Universe is AT LEAST 15 billion years old, but it doesn't come across as being the actual age.
There's people who say dinosaurs didn't exist. Of course, there's also people who say the US never landed on the Moon. I'd guess that science is pretty accurate in saying that dinosaurs are millions of years old, considering all the techniques of dating they have. Meanwhile, the Bible promotes faith rather than proof, which, although is a decent concept, doesn't come off as very convincing against the infinate possibilities otherwise.
Certainly the Bible provides some nice moral standards for society, even though far too many people take this as a perogative to punish or dislike those who do not follow those standards. The possibility of the events contained within it actually happening, however, are not that great statistically.
Although I find just the mere idea of Cthulhu proof enough to follow his guidance. ;)
Post by: Almeidaboo on May 03, 2006, 07:23:57 PM
Post by: drenrin2120 on May 03, 2006, 07:53:52 PM
Post by: Razor on May 03, 2006, 08:41:50 PM
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Originally posted by Osmose
Since radiation has a fixed speed (300.000 km/s) you can find out when the radiation was originally sent out from the object by looking at the object's distance. Scientists has found out that it's impossible to look further away than 15 billion light years thus meaning that the radiation from objects further away hasn't reached the earth yet meaning that universe must be 15 billion years old.
Actually if you look at the theories you discover that they're much more well-documented than many thinks. They don't just make stuff up like religions do.
That's all fine and well if you assume that the Earth is at the center of the Universe, which most people are pretty sure we're not. If they consistantly cannot look farther than 15 billion light years away (And I'm even a bit skeptical as to the range of Hubble, or whatever they use if they don't use Hubble anymore), than they may just be hitting the maximum range of the telescope. Certainly it is convincing proof that the Universe is AT LEAST 15 billion years old, but it doesn't come across as being the actual age.
There's people who say dinosaurs didn't exist. Of course, there's also people who say the US never landed on the Moon. I'd guess that science is pretty accurate in saying that dinosaurs are millions of years old, considering all the techniques of dating they have. Meanwhile, the Bible promotes faith rather than proof, which, although is a decent concept, doesn't come off as very convincing against the infinate possibilities otherwise.
Certainly the Bible provides some nice moral standards for society, even though far too many people take this as a perogative to punish or dislike those who do not follow those standards. The possibility of the events contained within it actually happening, however, are not that great statistically.
This is why I love you Moose. Especially that part about the universe being at least 15 billion years old.
Also, I've seen this site. It was absolutely awesome. It totally disproved the logic of Noah's Ark, of how it was impossible for a flood to cover the entire earth, how Noah couldn't possibly collect 2 of EVERY animal, and how its definately impossible that this only happened 6000 years ago.
If I can find it, I'll post it.
Also
Post by: Kijuki_Magazaki on May 03, 2006, 08:47:30 PM
Post by: Spike21 on May 03, 2006, 08:51:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Razor
quote: Originally posted by Osmose
Since radiation has a fixed speed (300.000 km/s) you can find out when the radiation was originally sent out from the object by looking at the object's distance. Scientists has found out that it's impossible to look further away than 15 billion light years thus meaning that the radiation from objects further away hasn't reached the earth yet meaning that universe must be 15 billion years old.
Actually if you look at the theories you discover that they're much more well-documented than many thinks. They don't just make stuff up like religions do.
That's all fine and well if you assume that the Earth is at the center of the Universe, which most people are pretty sure we're not. If they consistantly cannot look farther than 15 billion light years away (And I'm even a bit skeptical as to the range of Hubble, or whatever they use if they don't use Hubble anymore), than they may just be hitting the maximum range of the telescope. Certainly it is convincing proof that the Universe is AT LEAST 15 billion years old, but it doesn't come across as being the actual age.
There's people who say dinosaurs didn't exist. Of course, there's also people who say the US never landed on the Moon. I'd guess that science is pretty accurate in saying that dinosaurs are millions of years old, considering all the techniques of dating they have. Meanwhile, the Bible promotes faith rather than proof, which, although is a decent concept, doesn't come off as very convincing against the infinate possibilities otherwise.
Certainly the Bible provides some nice moral standards for society, even though far too many people take this as a perogative to punish or dislike those who do not follow those standards. The possibility of the events contained within it actually happening, however, are not that great statistically.
This is why I love you Moose. Especially that part about the universe being at least 15 billion years old.
Also, I've seen this site. It was absolutely awesome. It totally disproved the logic of Noah's Ark, of how it was impossible for a flood to cover the entire earth, how Noah couldn't possibly collect 2 of EVERY animal, and how its definately impossible that this only happened 6000 years ago.
If I can find it, I'll post it.
Also
well i am a christian and i would have to disagree about the Noahs Ark. its posiblle to fit that many because there were not as many speices back then and he could have brought the young and eggs.
and i still don't understand were people got the idea that the earth is millions of years old.
Post by: Kijuki_Magazaki on May 03, 2006, 08:58:14 PM
Post by: Tomi on May 03, 2006, 09:37:33 PM
And for clarification, I did not come up with this myself. This was a Scriptures class at my Catholic High School.
Post by: Spike21 on May 03, 2006, 10:02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Kijuki_Magazaki
From carbon dating or something.
carbon dating is not a reliable sorce
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Originally posted by Tomi
Let me repeat. Do not take the stories of the Old Testament literally. When these stories were first written, they where the kind of stories people would tell around campfires. Its like our ghost stories, but their purpose was different. People were trying to find out how everything in their lives came to be. The Creation Story (there are actually 3, one of which is the Garden of Eden one): This was used by the ancient people to make sense of their surroundings. And Drace, the whole seperating of the waters above and below was said because, in the ancient world, the people thought the sky was a giant clear dome that had water above it. God also was supposidly above it too. Whenever it rained, God was opening doors in the middle of the dome, and some of the water would come out. And the reason the Bible says that the sun revolved around the earth was because thats what the ancient people thought until science (which didn't really exist then) proved us differently. Again, Noah's Ark, Garden of Eden, etc. are ALL stories. There is metaphorical reasoning behind most the stories in the bible. If you can just try to look past the literal (it is NOT a list of facts), you will see that there is a greater message on how people need to live their lives.
And for clarification, I did not come up with this myself. This was a Scriptures class at my Catholic High School.
cristianity and catholism are two diffrent religions
Post by: Tomi on May 03, 2006, 10:40:48 PM
Also, it is the same God and same Bible, so it is relevant.
Post by: Big_Duke on May 03, 2006, 10:50:27 PM
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Originally posted by Razor
Space is huge. Huger than XBox. .
NNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing is huger than Xbox!
It can't be!
I won't believe it!
I believe that all animals except birds and bugs, were dinos on the Ark of Noah. And they evolved. So, that when we finally got here we have the evolved animals.
Off-Topic:Mike the Headless Chicken Day is coming to you in Fruita, Colorado.
Post by: Spike21 on May 03, 2006, 11:20:06 PM
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Originally posted by Tomi
Actually, Catholicism is a subset of Christianity. So definitely not totally different. Same basic set of beliefs, but different way of practicing them basically.
Also, it is the same God and same Bible, so it is relevant.
true but protestan is way diffrent from catholicism
Post by: Desimodontidae on May 04, 2006, 12:01:16 AM
Post by: Spike21 on May 04, 2006, 12:11:01 AM
Post by: DragonBlaze on May 04, 2006, 01:22:06 AM
First off, there are mentionings of 'dinosaurs' in the bible. Perhaps they're just metaphores, but they're in there. I forgot where, but they talk about the leviathan and such somehwere in the old testiment.
My next point, when God created the world, he created things with age. Adam didn't start as a baby, he was already a full grown man. The same thing goes for trees, so I think logically the same would apply to the earth itself. So who knows, God could have created the world at the age of 6 billion.
Meh, thats my opinion.
Post by: Osmose on May 04, 2006, 01:27:34 AM
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carbon dating is not a reliable sorce
Well I feel it's my duty to provide references to convince you otherwise.
Now, your original assumption that Carbon dating cannot prove that the Earth is millions of years old is actually correct. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dating) and it's sources, Radiocarbon dating is precise up to 60,000 years ago.
The way Radio-carbon dating works is simple. The particle Carbon-14 degrades at a half-life rate of 6000 years. This means that every 6000 years from it's formation, the particle loses half of it's mass. Now, the way they date with this is that when an organism dies, it stops producing carbon atoms (all organic life is defined as substances with carbon particles). Then, after 6000 years, the carbon-14 that was created right before it died is only 1/2 the mass of what it used to be. Another 6000 years after that, 1/4th, and so on and so forth until the mass becomes so miniscule that it's neglegable and unmeasurable.
That point is about 60,000 years later. But how do we measure longer in the past?
Quite simple. We simply use a substance that degrades slower. Which leads me back to my original intent.
Again to the wonderful Wikipedia, the Age of the Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth) article explains everything else simply. Radiometric dating using Uranium-Lead Dating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-lead_dating) , which can be accurate at periods around at least 3 billion years to an accuracy of 2 million years, which is equivalent to accuracy of 3000 years with an error of 2 years - a margin for error, but one that doesn't effect the point.
I'll leave most of the heavy reading to you, but my point stands - there are quite a few valid methods for determining the planet's age, and they all point to the planet being a few billion years old.
Post by: Smokey_locs2006 on May 04, 2006, 01:57:12 AM
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Originally posted by Desimodontidae
So I was thinking... and if God supposedly created man, then how do christians explain the fact that dinosaurs lived before humans? Just a quandary...
Easy.. in the bible is says that god created the earth, and all that stuff right? Then it says the eath became void. The key word is became. Which I think means something had to happen for the earth to become void.
Post by: drenrin2120 on May 04, 2006, 02:03:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Smokey_locs2006
quote: Originally posted by Desimodontidae
So I was thinking... and if God supposedly created man, then how do christians explain the fact that dinosaurs lived before humans? Just a quandary...
Easy.. in the bible is says that god created the earth, and all that stuff right? Then it says the eath became void. The key word is became. Which I think means something had to happen for the earth to become void.
Hm, good point, by void the bible could be referring to a state of little life. Thus, the extinction of dinosaurs. But this would suggest that the dinos died suddenly, did they? A meteor would explain that, but some think it was an ice age that killed off the dinos. To me, an ice age would make more sense, because if a meteor were to hit then how did some life survive if a meteor is suppose to cause nuclear winter. But of course, nuclear winter is just a theory and can never be proven until a meteor hits earth. There's always a chance a meteor strike is really not as significant as currently believed.
Post by: PyroAlchemist on May 04, 2006, 02:38:37 AM
Post by: Smokey_locs2006 on May 04, 2006, 02:43:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by drenrin2120
quote: Originally posted by Smokey_locs2006
quote: Originally posted by Desimodontidae
So I was thinking... and if God supposedly created man, then how do christians explain the fact that dinosaurs lived before humans? Just a quandary...
Easy.. in the bible is says that god created the earth, and all that stuff right? Then it says the eath became void. The key word is became. Which I think means something had to happen for the earth to become void.
Hm, good point, by void the bible could be referring to a state of little life. Thus, the extinction of dinosaurs. But this would suggest that the dinos died suddenly, did they? A meteor would explain that, but some think it was an ice age that killed off the dinos. To me, an ice age would make more sense, because if a meteor were to hit then how did some life survive if a meteor is suppose to cause nuclear winter. But of course, nuclear winter is just a theory and can never be proven until a meteor hits earth. There's always a chance a meteor strike is really not as significant as currently believed.
Yeah Nuclear winter.. I just don't believe in that. I think an Ice Age happened as well. That or the earth just changed too much for Dinos to live.
Post by: Razor on May 04, 2006, 05:02:25 AM
Post by: Drace on May 04, 2006, 07:34:05 AM
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Originally posted by PyroAlchemist
well I'm atheiaticomnist which means I don't believe in god or gods but I do believe in certain parts of different religions. Like one is I believe in karma.
I'm an atheistcommunist too then. My good karma rocks your socks.
Awwww.... everyone ignoring my post :'(
Post by: Sephiroth rocks on May 04, 2006, 03:22:21 PM
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I'm an atheistcommunist too then.
lol, I hope you meant atheiaticomnist!
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That's all fine and well if you assume that the Earth is at the center of the Universe, which most people are pretty sure we're not. If they consistantly cannot look farther than 15 billion light years away (And I'm even a bit skeptical as to the range of Hubble, or whatever they use if they don't use Hubble anymore), than they may just be hitting the maximum range of the telescope. Certainly it is convincing proof that the Universe is AT LEAST 15 billion years old, but it doesn't come across as being the actual age.
1. I don't really get what you're trying to say, why would the Earth have to be in the middle of the universe for the "max distance=age"-rule to apply?
2. It's not like all the astronomers in the world are looking at space through one single telescope there're hundreds and neither of them no matter how big they are, can look further away than the observable border of the universe.
And for the meteor thing as far as I know the enormous amount of matter that was thrown into space by the impact, shrouded the Earth, unabling sunlight to break through which caused the temperature to drop drastically extending the dinosaurs.
Post by: Moosetroop11 on May 04, 2006, 05:49:46 PM
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Originally posted by Osmose
quote: carbon dating is not a reliable sorce
Well I feel it's my duty to provide references to convince you otherwise.
Now, your original assumption that Carbon dating cannot prove that the Earth is millions of years old is actually correct. According to Wikipedia and it's sources, Radiocarbon dating is precise up to 60,000 years ago.
The way Radio-carbon dating works is simple. The particle Carbon-14 degrades at a half-life rate of 6000 years. This means that every 6000 years from it's formation, the particle loses half of it's mass. Now, the way they date with this is that when an organism dies, it stops producing carbon atoms (all organic life is defined as substances with carbon particles). Then, after 6000 years, the carbon-14 that was created right before it died is only 1/2 the mass of what it used to be. Another 6000 years after that, 1/4th, and so on and so forth until the mass becomes so miniscule that it's neglegable and unmeasurable.
That point is about 60,000 years later. But how do we measure longer in the past?
Quite simple. We simply use a substance that degrades slower. Which leads me back to my original intent.
Again to the wonderful Wikipedia, the Age of the Earth article explains everything else simply. Radiometric dating using Uranium-Lead Dating , which can be accurate at periods around at least 3 billion years to an accuracy of 2 million years, which is equivalent to accuracy of 3000 years with an error of 2 years - a margin for error, but one that doesn't effect the point.
I'll leave most of the heavy reading to you, but my point stands - there are quite a few valid methods for determining the planet's age, and they all point to the planet being a few billion years old.
:bend:
Post by: Spike21 on May 04, 2006, 07:36:48 PM
and about the dinasours. dinasours were acualy mentioned in the bible... i am now out of this conversation
Post by: Razor on May 04, 2006, 07:49:32 PM
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Originally posted by Sephiroth rocks
1. I don't really get what you're trying to say, why would the Earth have to be in the middle of the universe for the "max distance=age"-rule to apply?
It is currently 5:50am in the morning. I had to get up for one reason or another, so I decided "the computer". You should be thankful that I am going to draw a diagram.
So, 18 minutes later:
So, the universe on the left is the one where we are the center of the universe. If we were to use radiation that was sent from the expanding boarder of the universe (or stars or w/e close to it) we would a near constant age for each different radiation.
Now, Universe B is the one where we live in. Where we've been thrown off to a side somewhere. Since we are closer to an edge of the universe, we get radiation from that particular side a lot faster than the radiation from the opposite side, which has a lot more space to travel.
Post by: drenrin2120 on May 04, 2006, 09:16:11 PM
Post by: Razor on May 04, 2006, 09:35:14 PM
Also, not every star has planets.
Post by: drenrin2120 on May 04, 2006, 10:35:04 PM
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Originally posted by Razor
Well, considering the stars aren't very big when we zoom in, and also that in comparison to stars, planets are pretty much microscopic.
Also, not every star has planets.
I forgot about the fact that stars are like a million times bigger than planets. But still, aren't there any solar systems nearby we can track down?
Post by: PyroAlchemist on May 04, 2006, 10:55:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Drace
quote: Originally posted by PyroAlchemist
well I'm atheiaticomnist which means I don't believe in god or gods but I do believe in certain parts of different religions. Like one is I believe in karma.
I'm an atheistcommunist too then. My good karma rocks your socks.
Awwww.... everyone ignoring my post :'(
lol alright then. communism is bad but still. thats cool.
Post by: Osmose on May 04, 2006, 11:48:08 PM
Post by: drenrin2120 on May 04, 2006, 11:52:59 PM
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Originally posted by Osmose
Well the telescopes that can see billions of lightyears away are RADIOmicroscopes. Hubble is the one that can see the farthest in the visual spectrum, the one that we can actually see in pictures, and they use that for just what you're talking about - they've mentioned sighting and observation of nearby solar systems, but remember that Hubble is in orbit around the planet, and the oppourtunity to get a clear shot of the same place is very slim each day. It'd take a long time to actually get a detailed set of pictures of a single point even nearby.
Ahh... I see, well ain't that the suxxorz.
Post by: Sephiroth rocks on May 05, 2006, 12:02:59 PM
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NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) project estimates the age of the universe to be:
(13.7 ± 0.2) × 109 years.
That is, the universe is about 13.7 billion years old, with an uncertainty of 200 million years. However, this age is based on the assumption that the project's underlying model is correct; other methods of estimating the age of the universe could give different ages.
This measurement is made by using the location of the first acoustic peak in the microwave background power spectrum to determine the size of the decoupling surface (size of universe at the time of recombination). The light travel time to this surface (depending on the geometry used) yields a pretty good age for the universe. Assuming the validity of the models used to determine this age, the residual accuracy yields a margin of error near one percent.
Post by: Red XIII on May 10, 2006, 09:50:00 PM
I´m Catholic, and (As someone in this post said) we believe that the bible should be read simbolically understanding the meaning behind what it says (Like when it talks about the Hand of God, or about God´s fury).
I´ve never read, in the Bible, that the Sun moved around the Earth, or that the Earth was the centre of the Universe. that theory was created by Aristoteles (Don´t know how to write it i n English, he was a Greek Philosofer) and later, in the middle age, was addopted by the Church to support certain theories.
The Bible doesn´t deny evolution either. It doesn´t mention it, but it never says it doesn´t happen.
Now, about the Genesis: I think that the concept of "days" corresponds to ages. And the man came at the end. Dinosaurs had time to be born, to grow and extinct before.
Also, science CAN measure the age of dinosaur bones and attempt to calculate the age of the Universe.
Think about Galileo, people!!!
Post by: Spike21 on May 10, 2006, 10:03:10 PM
Post by: Solstacefaerie on May 10, 2006, 10:05:22 PM
In the Bible, it says specifiacally that all creatures of the sea, air, and land came BEFORE man, and that includes dinosaurs too. It also mentions the liaviathan (not correct spelling, methinks) and other such monsterous creatures, a.k.a dinosaurs, many times in the old testimate. So, yes, the Bible DOES talk about dinosaurs.
As to my belief, the dinosaurs did not, in fact, die before man came into the picture. Mostly they died out in the flood, along with everyone else that wasn't on the ark. That is why often times their remains are found buried in layers and layers of rock, which most atribute to the ice age, when, in fact, the flood of the Bible could have done the very same thing.
If you have questions about the Bible, I will be happy to answer them! :)
Post by: Desimodontidae on May 11, 2006, 01:10:03 AM
Modern science tells us that humans and dinosaurs did NOT live in the same time period. Yet the bible does. Was it God's will to change the laws of nature as we developed techniques to figure it out? Either way, one of the stories isn't correct, and science is pretty hard to prove wrong...
Post by: SonicChaos7 on May 11, 2006, 01:14:28 AM
Post by: Razor on May 11, 2006, 02:31:39 AM
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Originally posted by Desimodontidae
Uhh... how ahout my question, which still remains for the most part unanswered, if slightly modified from it's original version.
Modern science tells us that humans and dinosaurs did NOT live in the same time period. Yet the bible does. Was it God's will to change the laws of nature as we developed techniques to figure it out? Either way, one of the stories isn't correct, and science is pretty hard to prove wrong...
2nded. =p
Post by: Drace on May 12, 2006, 06:24:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by PyroAlchemist
quote: Originally posted by Drace
quote: Originally posted by PyroAlchemist
well I'm atheiaticomnist which means I don't believe in god or gods but I do believe in certain parts of different religions. Like one is I believe in karma.
I'm an atheistcommunist too then. My good karma rocks your socks.
Awwww.... everyone ignoring my post :'(
lol alright then. communism is bad but still. thats cool.
It's a wordjoke ffs... -_-'
Post by: Kinslayer on May 13, 2006, 01:36:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Desimodontidae
Modern science tells us that humans and dinosaurs did NOT live in the same time period. Yet the bible does.
You loose a little detail. The Genesis text is allegoric. The point of putting the creation in seven days is a mere concept that should not be taken lightly. The Bible doesn't "say" things, it has to be correctly read, and you are the one that has to get the conclusions out, because it is a meaningful text. The days could mean ages if you look at it technically, remember that the number 7 simbolizes the perfect, it is quite the strong number for believers.
By the way... could you tell me in which part of the text does say the word "dinosaur"? Just curious :p
And science has been proved wrong, everytime that scientists say that nuclear energy is safe, or when a technical mistake makes a bomb explode on it's own (it has happened). Science is the human's workship, so it should not be taken as something perfect.
Or are we, the humans, perfect enough to make something that can't be mistaken?