Post by: Shady Ultima on November 05, 2006, 07:16:52 PM
Post by: Cosmos on November 05, 2006, 07:21:29 PM
Post by: Osmose on November 05, 2006, 07:32:28 PM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 05, 2006, 07:40:14 PM
But seriously....
Hanging? 1930 called, and they want their method of "Kill the darkies" back.
Thats insane.
I dont approve of this.
But then again, I'm just some dude.
Post by: Grandy on November 05, 2006, 07:44:57 PM
And you just made this thread THAT I WAS GOING TO MAKE!
I even had a link and all...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15567363/?GT1=8717
Post by: Dragonium on November 05, 2006, 07:45:59 PM
It's playing God, and we've seen from history that that always ends in chaos. Besides, it's outdated and barbaric. Etc.
Even with all that he's done, to order his death, and have it as a celebrated event, is to rob him of all dignity and humanity, and that is something which nobody deserves to suffer.
We should just throw him in prison for, like, ever. That'd be a better punishment.
Post by: MrMister on November 05, 2006, 07:47:17 PM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 05, 2006, 07:47:37 PM
I mean, theyve gotta show that the war on terror accomplished SOMETHING, right?
Post by: Cosmos on November 05, 2006, 07:49:34 PM
Yeah, you've got a point plight.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 05, 2006, 07:51:53 PM
Im sure they think this is the end-all. This is the one that will win the war.
mmmyeah.
Anyone know if there is going to be an appeal process?
Post by: Dragonium on November 05, 2006, 07:57:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
Anyone know if there is going to be an appeal process?
From what I read he has one last chance to appeal before a jury or something, and if they say no, no life for you, he has to be executed within 30 days.
Also, there are still a lot of people in Iraq, especially those in his hometown, Tikrit, who still support him. It's going to be interesting to see what they do.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 05, 2006, 07:58:53 PM
30 days? So much for red tape.
Post by: Osmose on November 05, 2006, 07:59:53 PM
He's still going to be alive after this thread is dead and gone, what with how long the legal process can be drawn out.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 05, 2006, 08:02:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Osmose
Oh yeah. He has to go through another court to confirm the sentence, and then he has all sorts of chances to appeal, etc. etc.
He's still going to be alive after this thread is dead and gone, what with how long the legal process can be drawn out.
Did you read that, or are you estimating? (Not trying to be rude)
Becasue it is an Iraqi court. Not American....not technically anyhow.
Post by: I Have a Sandwich on November 05, 2006, 08:07:02 PM
Post by: Cosmos on November 05, 2006, 08:16:04 PM
Post by: Archem on November 05, 2006, 08:20:15 PM
Post by: Razor on November 05, 2006, 08:37:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Osmose
barring something like beating him to death with his own dismembered arm?
That WOULD be amazingly awesome.
Quote
Originally posted by MrMister
Wow, seems a little crazy, but the punishment should fit the crime. I mean, he's decapitated and raped tonnes of people. Hanging might be a little tame.
I think I see what you're saying. He should be raped by tonnes of people, and then decapitated.
Quote
Originally posted by Dragonium
he has to be executed within 30 days.
30 days or exectution is free, right?
Well, as far as this goes, it will be my 2nd favourite hanging of the year!
Post by: Osmose on November 05, 2006, 08:50:34 PM
Quote
The death sentences automatically go to a nine-judge appeals panel, which has unlimited time to review the case. If the verdicts and sentences are upheld, the executions must be carried out within 30 days.
A court official told The Associated Press that the appeals process was likely to take three to four weeks once the formal paperwork was submitted. If the verdicts are upheld, those sentenced to death would be hanged despite Saddam's second, ongoing trial for allegedly murdering thousands of Iraq's Kurdish minority.
Archem: I'm not unsure about hanging him, I'm saying that if you think he should be killed, worrying about how is kinda useless, as they all end in his death, and hanging isn't quite as painful and humiliating as, say, the aforementioned arm-beating, or dropping him into a pit of spikes and leaving him there to suffer.
Post by: Anubis_Soldier on November 05, 2006, 08:59:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by I Have a Sandwich
Its about f***ing time. Just lynch the sucker and let him swing.
lol, i think he should be taken to a jungle and dropped into a bamboo shoot trap, i think that is what it is called.
Where poles of bamboo with sharpened tips are put at the bottom of the pit. That way his legs are mutilated and then they can beat him with his own dismembered arm, then throw him in rikers prison and then finally hang him... Thats how i would do it >:
Post by: X_marks_the_ed on November 05, 2006, 10:23:58 PM
Post by: Kinslayer on November 06, 2006, 12:58:07 AM
I can't help myself to think that the judges were totally partial in the trial. And killing is just playing God. I believe that Saddam should be locked forever, and put to some real hard *** work. I am against the war at Iraq and the US's external policies and etc, but truly, Saddam's a bloody son of a big bitch. He has to be punished. But killing him? How does that make the ones who judge him better? Just lock him forever in the deepest hole on Earth and done.
Post by: I Have a Sandwich on November 06, 2006, 01:03:18 AM
Post by: Anubis_Soldier on November 06, 2006, 01:06:46 AM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 06, 2006, 01:12:09 AM
I have a hard time believing any book that tells me "God sends all the Gays, and kids who have premarital sex to hell if they dont grovel for forgivness."
I dont think its playing god. God dosent kill people, people and their enviroments do.
I knew they would kill him as soon as they caught him. I would have put money on it, in fact.
Its just......Hanging...its soo......archaic.
And the entire UN is like, "WHOOOOOOT WHOOOOOOT! LETS HANG US A DARKIE". "VICTORY! MILESTONE! HISTORY!"
I dont think there is a need to hang anyone.
I dont know if youre all aware of what is entailed in a hanging. Its no way to die.
Its symbolic......not in a good way either. Im baffled that they would hang somebody in a situation like this, as opposed to gunshot or injection or the chair. Theyre going to make a public spectacle out of this.
And thats pretty disgusting. That makes the "good guys" no more "Good" than the criminal.
Post by: Kinslayer on November 06, 2006, 01:17:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by I Have a Sandwich
Well, if you keep him alive, thats money that your GIVING to him for his food, water, etc. Are you telling me that you would want the people of Iraq/US to pay to keep Saddam alive? As for 'it's playing God, bible says blah, blah" just remember, the commandment "Do unto others".
I haven't said that we have to support him, make the guy WORK. I haven't spoken about the Bible, and I remember a commandment that says "You shall not kill". If to you life is meaningless and you have the right to kill, that's ok, but to me not.
Post by: Drace on November 06, 2006, 01:20:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by I Have a Sandwich
Well, if you keep him alive, thats money that your GIVING to him for his food, water, etc. Are you telling me that you would want the people of Iraq/US to pay to keep Saddam alive? As for 'it's playing God, bible says blah, blah" just remember, the commandment "Do unto others".
Put him in some third world's country. He'll sweat like a pig and eat like a bug. He'll probably die of Tyfus too.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 06, 2006, 01:21:59 AM
"Do unto others" wasnt a commandment either dude.
It was in the scripture, but Definatly not a comandment
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 01:26:42 AM
Post by: I Have a Sandwich on November 06, 2006, 01:31:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
IHAS
"Do unto others" wasnt a commandment either dude.
It was in the scripture, but Definatly not a comandment
Hm, was it? I haven't been to church in so long... Meh, it's not, but it should have been. Makes so much more sense than "Do not covet". "I'm hungry, I want your excess food" *KA-SIN!*
Post by: charaman on November 06, 2006, 01:47:01 AM
Revenge is a base emotion and has no place in the judicial system.
That said, I'd like to see his *** suffer in prison for the rest of a long, long life.
Post by: Anubis_Soldier on November 06, 2006, 01:49:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by I Have a Sandwich
quote: Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
IHAS
"Do unto others" wasnt a commandment either dude.
It was in the scripture, but Definatly not a comandment
Hm, was it? I haven't been to church in so long... Meh, it's not, but it should have been. Makes so much more sense than "Do not covet". "I'm hungry, I want your excess food" *KA-SIN!*
you are thinking of Hamurabi's Code, An eye for an eye...
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM
Post by: coasterkrazy on November 06, 2006, 01:57:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
IHAS
"Do unto others" wasnt a commandment either dude.
It was in the scripture, but Definatly not a comandment
Actually, it was, just not one of the original ten, but that's generally what's thought of when you think of commandments.
Quote
Jesus
A new commandment I give you:
:p
Then the "do unto others" thing.
Post by: WarxePB on November 06, 2006, 02:09:54 AM
At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if some massive scandal emerged after his execution about jury rigging or bribed judges or whatnot. And, like others said already, this won't end the violence in Iraq - if anything, Saddam will be turned into a martyr.
Post by: Almeidaboo on November 06, 2006, 02:19:20 AM
Now, the next one I`m dying to see in Bush`s hanging. Though I wanted him to be drowned...Imagine, that fat murderous face of his becoming purple and him choking and having convulsions...
It`s just so....:)~~~~~~
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 06, 2006, 04:35:14 AM
I read somewhere he was 'visibly shaken when the sentence was issued'. Which is a major contrast to how defiant he was before this. He prolly thought he'd be set free. I don't know, I just think it's ironic and says something. A lot of something.
EDIT: And by the way, this wouldn't be considered an eye for an eye, unless Saddam had a couple thousand eyes.
Post by: Anubis_Soldier on November 06, 2006, 04:44:19 AM
Post by: Hell Angel on November 06, 2006, 05:00:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Anubis_Soldier
Dammit... stupid humans and their 2 eyes... What we will do, is take a thousand baby eyes and use a laser to melt them onto saddams face, hook up the nerves and start poking them out...
That will solve the problem
That was not funny...
Post by: MrMister on November 06, 2006, 05:05:06 AM
Post by: Anubis_Soldier on November 06, 2006, 05:06:16 AM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 06, 2006, 05:32:38 AM
Post by: Anubis_Soldier on November 06, 2006, 05:34:13 AM
I do however believe Saddam deserves death, he has killed thousands to stay in power, hanging is to good for that pathetic lump of flesh
Post by: Osmose on November 06, 2006, 08:08:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Almeidaboo
I hope it goes on TV! Hell, the feeling of knowing that one fucking murderer is being sent to heel earlier so live...orgasmic.
Now, the next one I`m dying to see in Bush`s hanging. Though I wanted him to be drowned...Imagine, that fat murderous face of his becoming purple and him choking and having convulsions...
It`s just so....:)~~~~~~
I don't like him as much as anyone else, but I don't quite think Bush needs to die. I'd much rather have you be examined in the head for being so freaky. O_O
Drenin: I've read everywhere that he "trembled and yelled,'God is Great!'", which is pretty ambiguous in terms of news-talk. He could've easily been shaking and getting giddy about how he would become a martyr or something.
As long as you keep in mind that we haven't found the WMDs, it's okay to support his death. :P
Post by: Shady Ultima on November 06, 2006, 11:18:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
Its symbolic......not in a good way either. Im baffled that they would hang somebody in a situation like this, as opposed to gunshot or injection or the chair. Theyre going to make a public spectacle out of this.
And thats pretty disgusting. That makes the "good guys" no more "Good" than the criminal.
Agreed. Does anyone remember how WWI started? With a Kaizer being assassinated?
Welcome to the beginning of WWIII...
Now, that's just my prediction, but the Iraqi supporters are gonna make Saddam a martyr, and Iran, North Korea, and a bunch of other countries are goin to decide America has had enough.
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 12:02:08 PM
Post by: Grandy on November 06, 2006, 02:44:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by I Have a Sandwich
Well, if you keep him alive, thats money that your GIVING to him for his food, water, etc. Are you telling me that you would want the people of Iraq/US to pay to keep Saddam alive? As for 'it's playing God, bible says blah, blah" just remember, the commandment "Do unto others".
People from Iraq/US are paying to keep lot's of people alive, many of which deservd to be killed. Having one more wouldn't do any diference.
Or, as a theory: Put Saddam in jail, but all the money used to keep him alive from now on will be HIS money, you know, the money he had before that? I'm pretty sure it must be enough to keep him alive to the rest of his days.
Post by: Apex on November 06, 2006, 03:01:09 PM
Post by: Glitch on November 06, 2006, 03:27:34 PM
1. Saddam was visibly shaken : I actually watched the video of him being told the news yesterday, when he first said it he looked taken aback, he probably thought he'd be set free considering the old judge was a blatant supporter of him, but that guy was replaced. After a little while he started yelling and got all defiant again, shouting that the court was the enemy of the people, and that God was great.
2. Doesn't justify the death sentence : That is not for us in America to decide, that's up to the thousands of Iraqi citizens, and the judges, who have watched him murder their freinds and family for years. Regardless of if we think hanging isn't right or whatever, that's the way they want to do it. (I for one think he deserves worse).
3. Why spend money to kill him : Ok, it really doesn't take alot of money to buy a rope _sweat_
4. WWIII : Umm, I don't know if you realize this, but the whole
Middle East hates itself, Iran hates Iraq, Iraq hates Iran, Isreal hates Iran and Iraq and the Palestinians, the palestinians hate Isreal, like Iran, and hate some other country... You get the picture, I don't think that his death will cause WWIII, as they won't use him as their martyr. Oh, and WWI was started when Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. Not quite the same situation.
My own two cents. I think he deserves it. A large part of Iraq wants him to die. My arabic friends (I go to school in Dearborn, largest Arab population outside of the middle east). My friend Malak told me about her cousin that managed to get out of Iraq and come to America after his whole family was murdered thanks to an order from Saddam. And the whole death penalty thing, It's not really playing God, if you read the old testament there were many incidents in which God ordered death to people who had done wrong. And the death penalty isn't murder, as murder is killing with malice. The executioner usually has nothing personal against the person to be killed.
ok, well I'm done.
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 04:44:20 PM
And I think the only real issue with jail is the fact that it's like a mini-city in there. Lack of room, and tempers going outta control. Constant fights, and deaths that noone really cares about.
The bible thing contradicts it's self.. thou shall not kill, but do stone a man if he lays with another. Blah blah blah. Even tho god is all forgiven, still kill this murderer's *** so god can send'em to hell. _sweat_
Post by: Almeidaboo on November 06, 2006, 05:27:52 PM
Living in a poor country led me to the following conclusion: people do not care about the others. Here, politicians stuff $100s in their asses when millions starve. And they just pretend not to see it (or, in my opinion, have pleasure on making others suffer).
Same goes for Saddam, he just didn´t care. His bellybutton was the center of the world, and the rest could die that he wouldn´t care.
And Bush's not a inch far from Saddam, cause he claims to make justice, but he sponsors war crimes, and doens´t give a ****.
I do not see why people value human life so much, if it is, in fact, fagile and volatile.
Eye for and eye is perfect justice. Where is it unfair? In a balance, why would death be heavier than death?
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 06:00:09 PM
Post by: Moosetroop11 on November 06, 2006, 06:01:28 PM
Post by: Almeidaboo on November 06, 2006, 06:23:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. It seems that you do not value life either almei... The same way those politicans you preach against want death, you do. Whether you like it or not, you are human. Just like them. Not only that, but there are poorer places then were you live. Hell, you have the internet other places don't even have a candle to light.
Nonono, that´s COMPLETELY different. When I say death for death is justified I say it because it´ll free the world from one murderous bastard. Saddam dead, no more people dead. Bush dead, no more people dead.
What they do with people here is pure cruelty: they leave people to die of starvation while they drink and eat the best. The leave people ignorant, just so we do not question what they´re doing.
I sincerely do not value SOME lives. I do not value a murderer's life, like Saddam and Bush's. Those who´ve done wrong have got to be punished. And I´ll tell you: they do not change. They need to be eliminated, cause otherwise they´ll do it again.
I´m not complaining about my condition here, absolutely not. But God presented me with something many people do not have: conscience. Responsability. Critical sense. It is my responsability to speak for those people that cannot speak for themselves because murderers, rapists, and specially politicians took away they´re chance to play any kind of role in the world. They´ll live as ****, and die as ****, just to feed a minority's selfishness (made up word?).
Some people have only one remedy: elimination. And I speak cause I´ve just got out of 4 years of open corruption, and the poor and ignorant elected the same bastard for 4 more years of king's life. They do not change, and they do not care. Saddam will kill, Bush will kill, and Lula will steal. Unless they´re dead.
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 06:33:08 PM
I dunno, to me putting someone on deathrow is just stepping down to their level. Sometimes the person is innocent too...... NO I'M NOT SAYING SADDIE IS INNOCENT, <.<;;. You know people who actually defend the death penalty don't give a **** when they find out the person they wanted dead was innocent after all? They're like, oh well..? It ain't our problem anymore. FIND THE NEXT PERSON! Like come on, whose really heartless? People are.
Post by: Razor on November 06, 2006, 08:08:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Almeidaboo
quote: Originally posted by Midnight
An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. It seems that you do not value life either almei... The same way those politicans you preach against want death, you do. Whether you like it or not, you are human. Just like them. Not only that, but there are poorer places then were you live. Hell, you have the internet other places don't even have a candle to light.
Nonono, that´s COMPLETELY different. When I say death for death is justified I say it because it´ll free the world from one murderous bastard. Saddam dead, no more people dead. Bush dead, no more people dead.
What they do with people here is pure cruelty: they leave people to die of starvation while they drink and eat the best. The leave people ignorant, just so we do not question what they´re doing.
I sincerely do not value SOME lives. I do not value a murderer's life, like Saddam and Bush's. Those who´ve done wrong have got to be punished. And I´ll tell you: they do not change. They need to be eliminated, cause otherwise they´ll do it again.
I´m not complaining about my condition here, absolutely not. But God presented me with something many people do not have: conscience. Responsability. Critical sense. It is my responsability to speak for those people that cannot speak for themselves because murderers, rapists, and specially politicians took away they´re chance to play any kind of role in the world. They´ll live as ****, and die as ****, just to feed a minority's selfishness (made up word?).
Some people have only one remedy: elimination. And I speak cause I´ve just got out of 4 years of open corruption, and the poor and ignorant elected the same bastard for 4 more years of king's life. They do not change, and they do not care. Saddam will kill, Bush will kill, and Lula will steal. Unless they´re dead.
I'd like to take the time to mention that Bush is trying to help people but he's really bad at it.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 06, 2006, 08:27:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
A little background info here
if you read the old testament there were many incidents in which God ordered death to people who had done wrong. And the death penalty isn't murder, as murder is killing with malice.
ok, well I'm done.
And this kind of crap is whats feuling the wars. (And oil too)
Gods that "Order death"
Gimme a break man.
Its not playing god. Its not doing the right thing. But honestly, at this point, I dont think there is a "Right" thing.
But I do know what the "Wrong thing" is.
Hanging somebody for 'crimes against Humanity', in public. Im not going to say that sadam was a good guy by anymeans. And Im not gonna shout "Kill bush while youre at it". Im speaking objectivly here.
Do it in private, if you have to. The only reason its being so publicly broadcast is for the intents of propaganda.
And I cant believe that YOUNG people especially, are buying it. The Students, throughout history, and Young adults, have typically been the ones to criticize this kind of thing. The ones to take an Objective look at a situation, and analyze it.
In doing this, it proves that the powers that be have no intrest in learning from the past.
Granted, I live in Canada. Its easy for me to rant about this.
And somebody who lives in say, Brazil, or Cuba, or Argentina, could easily want to jump on board the "Gung ho" band wagon.
But seriously, were moving toward an age of Global integration.
And I dont think repeating things, like killing figureheads for the sake of rallying public support is going to accomplish anything but stirring up the pot of global hostilities.
I agree with Mid. An eye for an Eye makes the whole world blind.
This isnt about god anymore than it is about Oil and economy.
This is about masking whats really going on.
What are they hiding from you, with such a fantastic display of Public condemnation of "evil saddam"?
America is guilty of its own mass murders, and injustices. But the thing is, the american machine, is so overbearing and loud that it drowns this **** out. "Were fightin' terroismists, lets git em!"
I have trouble even trying to relate objectivly to a government that puts secret concentration camps up in My own Country, and denys their existance. I have trouble with an government that imposes global order with its collection of "The biggest supply of NUkes at G.Dubyas Nulcear arms lot!". I have trouble with Governments that fund radical terrorist groups until the groups dont agree with their policies any more.
I have trouble with this whole thing. And I think Apathy and misanthropy are about the least effective approaches to this global $hitheap.
But for some reason, two wrongs make a right these days.
Post by: Glitch on November 06, 2006, 08:30:39 PM
Almei, I realize that you are passionate about not liking Bush, but you don't live in America, you really haven't experienced him first hand.
I realize he isn't the best president ever, and he has made some huge mistakes. But calling him a murderer on Saddam's level is a bit uneducated. Yes, Bush did push for the war. No, Bush is not responsible for the war by himself. Yes, some unethical treatment of prisoners has occured. No, Bush did not sit down and order those prisoners to be tortured, that was the order of the commanding officer in that area.
Bush put the idea of war up to congress, and in a bipartisan (meaning both republican and democratic senators/reps) movement they decided to pass the declaration of war. Thus sending america to war. Basically, by calling Bush a murderer because of the war, you are calling every senator that voted for the war, and every house rep that voted for it, a murderer. Which means you are calling every voter that voted for them murderers. Do you think all of America is on Saddam's level?
Saddam on the other hand, had a totalitarian rule on his country, he decided one day he was going to go murder a butt load of kuwait citizens. He single handedly ordered a genocide. No senate, no house, no votes, his word only. Get your facts straight before you rant.
And mid. I realize that it costs more money to kill someone (thanks to the appeals process) than it does to keep them alive. My problem isn't with how much money, it's what my money is being spent on. I don't like the thought that my tax payer money (and yes, I do pay taxes) is supporting the life of a murder. And that is really stupid saying that just because we support the death penalty means we don't care who dies. Things aren't perfect yet, we do still make mistakes, and yes, I feel bad every time someone unjustly dies. But you have to admit we make far less mistakes now than we did. At least now we actually have fair trials, dna evidence, appeals courts, etc...
You say eye for an eye and the world goes blind, but what happens when the whole world turns the other cheek?
And Plight, I don't know if you realize it or not, but that is the biggest load of uneducated crap I've ever seen towards the bottom there. Do me a favor and leave canda, go to college in America, take political science classes, and research this on your own before you go off spouting what you've heard your parents say for years...
And to all the foreign people, please stop blindly assuming everything your government and media tells you is true, you all don't have the slightest idea how American government works, it's alot more simple than the President handing down an order.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 06, 2006, 09:00:55 PM
Because they sit at home, and send other people to "Hey, Kill those guys over there"
Call me an ***hole, but Im pretty sure sadam did something very similar. "Hey. Durka Durka. Go Kill those guys over there."
Im positive Sadam Phsically Murdered people. But he did, by no means, single handedly commit GENOCIDE.
And I am Positive that G Dubya, hasnt Pysically Murdered anyone.
But this is Global 'effin politics. There are subordinates that do the Killing and Raping for the figureheads.
American troops have been known to Kill and rape on occasion too.
By the way to talk, this is suddams morning:
"Weelllllll Ive got to get out of bed, and Singlehandedly kill thousands of people. This is gonna take forEVER, durka durka."
Seriously, sure Hang him then if you gatta. But using this logic, if youre gonna support hanging him, then Bush, Harper, And Blair should be hung too. And Bush Senior. And CLinton. And Regan.
And Every other global leader who has ever had any part in any War whatsoever.
Like I said....two wrongs make a Right, it seems.
And by "youre young dont be snowed" I dont mean, be a hippy and protest everything....I mean "Dont eat the crap they spoon feed you, just because they are convieniently feeding it to you, while you eat a big mac, and watch Lost." Were all victims of Media and Political, an corporate Propaganda. Its your job as a human being to make up your own mind, and relize the difference between fact and fiction.
Were living in the dawn of the information age, and the Blazing hot Afternoon, of the Disinformation age.....And people are pretty lazy these days when it comes to seeding out the DISinformation.
Just because somebody tells you the "Moon is made of Cheese, its official" does not make it true.
Post by: Grandy on November 06, 2006, 09:42:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Almeidaboo
What they do with people here is pure cruelty: they leave people to die of starvation while they drink and eat the best. The leave people ignorant, just so we do not question what they´re doing.
I sincerely do not value SOME lives. I do not value a murderer's life, like Saddam and Bush's. Those who´ve done wrong have got to be punished. And I´ll tell you: they do not change. They need to be eliminated, cause otherwise they´ll do it again.
Heh, you talk as if we're any diferent. When was the last time you decided not to eat that steak or BBQ and give it to the poorer guy that's watching it from the street? I never. And, though it pains me to say so, I'll most likely never do that.
I agree with you at punishing, but let's be frank, even if your logic is correct, killing them won't be half the things they've done to others, thus it won't be as much of a punishment, will it? Keep 'em alive, let they live without having contact with the world, that's a far worse punishment than death, I can surely tell you so.
What it seems is that people aways need to find a easy way out. It's aways easier to kill someone, even someone evil, and claim that's how it's supposed to be. I believe people like Saddam and Bush will aways be there, and trying to kill all them would be impossible, especially because, who defines what's wrong and whats not? You? Me? That bunch of people who goes to a law court and classifies other bunch of people as culprit or innocent?
Many times, people find themselves in a situation where they must kill to survive, and I'm not talking about self-defense, either. Think about it: You've lived on the streets, people walk past you, and ignore you, you even try and ask for money, but "You'd probally spend it with booze, anyway.". Very well, one day, you just notice that you are alone in this, you can't expect those people to help you, those very same people who turn their faces away when you go ask for money, then you do what's left for you to do: You steal.
in your first attempt, you panic, bang, one murder.
Exactly who's the culprit in this? That could, if you think a little, be classified as Self-Defense, if anyone cared to look at your past, they could see that no, you had no other option. Still, no one cares, you're a murderer, and you'll pay for it. You'll pay for having a rough life, with no help whatsoever, with your life.
Did you know that a man who was 20-or so year waiting to be executed, was sorry for what he did, and even wrote a book about how what he did was wrong? That man got nominated to the Nobel of Peace, even. Sadly, he was killed.
Many people change, you just have to actually pay attention to they, instead of the numbers that are shown to you.
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 09:49:23 PM
I think, honestly united we fail..(not for every case tho) When we're together it's hard to think, people become a sort of mob.. Every single sensible thought is consumed by the one thought of blood. Public hanging? Like com'on, how does that sound? It's ok to hang someone in the public eye? Doesn't that make you just as bad as the person whose about to be hung? Oh wait, this is justified.. Who are we to say that killin another person is justified? It's in the bible.. it's in the law.. man, whatever. That's all bullshit that's been fed to us by society. To hide what's really going on right before our very eyes.
There are people straving, and uncurable cures.. and yet everyone is havin an orgasim over someone's hanging. lawl.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 06, 2006, 10:05:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
You didn't understand what I was sayin.. Before in topics like this, people complained that we were wasting money on keeping them alive. Money that could be spent on something useful.. Honestly, we're wasting money on killing them.. Like gawd.... Also, I wasn't trying to imply that every pro-death penalty person didn't care about an innocent person being killed, but do they do anything about it? Course not. Also, if we turn the other cheek least we can still see :p .
I think, honestly united we fail..(not for every case tho) When we're together it's hard to think, people become a sort of mob.. Every single sensible thought is consumed by the one thought of blood. Public hanging? Like com'on, how does that sound? It's ok to hang someone in the public eye? Doesn't that make you just as bad as the person whose about to be hung? Oh wait, this is justified.. Who are we to say that killin another person is justified? It's in the bible.. it's in the law.. man, whatever. That's all bullshit that's been fed to us by society. To hide what's really going on right before our very eyes.
There are people straving, and uncurable cures.. and yet everyone is havin an orgasim over someone's hanging. lawl.
Ive never agreed with you more, Mid. Rock on
Post by: charaman on November 06, 2006, 10:14:06 PM
DEATH PENALTY SUPPORTERS ARE A BUNCH OF APES. It's a primal instinct that goes against the natural order.
Post by: Osmose on November 06, 2006, 10:20:07 PM
Who's to say that the Iraqi public see a hanging as the same as lethal injection? They lived under Saddam's regime for so long that by comparison, hanging someone seems tame. To them, they're being just as morally right as we are when we use a lethal injection. Morals are relative, based on where you were raised.
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 06, 2006, 10:49:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by charaman
I'll say it again. Murder is murder, no matter who sanctions it, no matter what the person did to "deserve" it. It's a punishment based on revenge, legitimized by the misinformed.
DEATH PENALTY SUPPORTERS ARE A BUNCH OF APES. It's a primal instinct that goes against the natural order.
Dude, stuff like that pisses me off. We're not apes, okay. You say murder is murder and we should value all life. I say you're wrong, some life has no value. Saddam's life has no value, a greedy man that killed other people? What value in life does he add up to? In what good way does he contribute to anything but himself? Why should anyone value a murderer's life? Death penalty can be a little barbaric. But it is not instinctual in any way. We don't randomly go around giving people the death penalty, people are issued the death penalty for horrible things THEY did.
Earlier, someone said that everyone has the ability to kill. I think it was Mid. You're right, anyone can pick up a knife and stab someone. And everyone thinks now and then "I hope that bitch dies slow." Or something to that effect. But how many people will carry those thoughts out? If a person carries out murder, it's still wrong. It doesn't matter that anyone is capable of it. ANYONE can go and rob a bank, does it mean they shouldn't deserve jail time just 'cuz EVERYONE has thought, "If only I could get away with stealing this."
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 11:01:18 PM
I really don't think I made my point in this one... <.<;;
Post by: Darkfox on November 06, 2006, 11:08:13 PM
My thoughts are though... I don't really know for sure... but it is not my hand that pulls the rope. But hanging... is rather... barbaric. Next thing you know they'll bring back the guilitine.
Edit: Next thing you know they might go back to STONING. Dear Lord...
Edit 2: Somtimes it is so confusing to distinguish between right and wrong in these matters. But I do agree on the thing about hanging... not cool.
Post by: Kinslayer on November 06, 2006, 11:20:24 PM
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 11:28:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Darkfox
My thoughts are though... I don't really know for sure... but it is not my hand that pulls the rope. But hanging... is rather... barbaric. Next thing you know they'll bring back the guilitine.
That reminded me of dracula for some reason XD
Post by: Darkfox on November 06, 2006, 11:30:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
quote: Originally posted by Darkfox
My thoughts are though... I don't really know for sure... but it is not my hand that pulls the rope. But hanging... is rather... barbaric. Next thing you know they'll bring back the guilitine.
That reminded me of dracula for some reason XD
Wasn't he beheaded or was he beheaded? Or was it the "Barbaric" line? XD I can't quite remember that. I know for a fact that stuff went on at that era.
Post by: charaman on November 06, 2006, 11:34:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by drenrin2120
Death penalty can be a little barbaric. But it is not instinctual in any way. We don't randomly go around giving people the death penalty, people are issued the death penalty for horrible things THEY did.
What I mean is that it's a gut reaction when we hear of these atrocities to say "He should die" or suffer or something along those lines.
What you have to realize is, the death penalty doesn't just end the person's life. What of his family? I'm not well read on the situation to know about them, but it takes a son away from a mother, a brother away from a sister. A mother and sister likely innocent of a crime deserving such action. You can hate the action, and hell, even hate the person, but exact revenge? It's animal. The death penalty is not a penalty, per se, it is an end. The penalty is the hours leading up to it, which some have argued as "cruel and unusual" because its the most extreme form of mental torture. Imagine looking at a clock, and knowing the very second to your death. Many minds have snapped. Who are you to impose that on another?
Quote
Earlier, someone said that everyone has the ability to kill. I think it was Mid. You're right, anyone can pick up a knife and stab someone. And everyone thinks now and then "I hope that bitch dies slow." Or something to that effect. But how many people will carry those thoughts out? If a person carries out murder, it's still wrong. It doesn't matter that anyone is capable of it. ANYONE can go and rob a bank, does it mean they shouldn't deserve jail time just 'cuz EVERYONE has thought, "If only I could get away with stealing this."[/B]
As somewhat of a Chaote, I believe the world is only able to run due to self-imposed restrictions. We all have the ability to do EVERYTHING (as per my beliefs), but our society survives because we don't. We have to be above the blood lust, and punish him in a logical way.
The murder shouldn't kill, but we have the responsibility to resist that urge in their retribution.
^Kinslayer-> agree'd
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 06, 2006, 11:39:45 PM
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
My opinion is this.
If you support somebody getting Hung, at this day in age.....
Maybe you should try breathing through you damned nose for a change.
You cant tell me there arent more human alternative. If you want him to suffer, let him stay in solitary. That will enforce much more wraith.
Hanging him......a death of that nature......
If he wasnt going to be a martyr before a sentencing like that......
then he surely will now.
Just my opinion.
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 11:43:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Darkfox
Wasn't he beheaded or was he beheaded? Or was it the "Barbaric" line? XD I can't quite remember that. I know for a fact that stuff went on at that era.
Quote
Vlad's body was decapitated by the Turks and his head was sent to Istanbul and preserved in honey, where the sultan had it displayed on a stake as proof that Kazıklı Bey was dead.
Oh wiki, thank you for informing us. lawl, Vlad the impaler.. awsome guy.
Post by: Darkfox on November 06, 2006, 11:46:00 PM
Post by: Cosmos on November 06, 2006, 11:47:43 PM
Post by: charaman on November 06, 2006, 11:53:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
As for saddams family, Charaman, theyre all pretty much getting hung too.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
My opinion is this.
If you support somebody getting Hung, at this day in age.....
Maybe you should try breathing through you damned nose for a change.
You cant tell me there arent more human alternative. If you want him to suffer, let him stay in solitary. That will enforce much more wraith.
Hanging him......a death of that nature......
If he wasnt going to be a martyr before a sentencing like that......
then he surely will now.
Just my opinion.
I believe the United States has a few states where hanging is a legal option, or at least they did as of the 1990's.
Post by: Almeidaboo on November 07, 2006, 12:18:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Grandy
Heh, you talk as if we're any diferent. When was the last time you decided not to eat that steak or BBQ and give it to the poorer guy that's watching it from the street? I never. And, though it pains me to say so, I'll most likely never do that.
Dude, I`ll explain to you why this`unlogical. We pay taxes, and those are taken by the government only, and only, to use to the country improvement and to it`s people aid. I have absolutely no obligation to give up my food to do what the State should be doing. And still, I do.
In law school we read a lot of Russeau and Savigny, the fathers of the Social Pact. And we have Theory of the State. From that I have all the basis to say what I`m saying: poor people`s food is now the panties of our president`s wife. The money that WE paid to have benefits is used for their selfish desires.
If you ever give your food to the poor, observe 2 things: 1) You`re being fooled by the government, cause you`re paying twice. 2) You`re a saint, cause even knowing that, you still help those who need.
I`m sure that I`m 100% different from politicians. Otherwise, please, kill me, cause I`m a real plague.
Post by: Osmose on November 07, 2006, 12:40:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Almeidaboo
I`m sure that I`m 100% different from politicians. Otherwise, please, kill me, cause I`m a real plague.
You're an anarchist?
Benevolent anarchy interspersed with unified democracy for the win.
Post by: I Have a Sandwich on November 07, 2006, 12:46:55 AM
Post by: Revolution911 on November 07, 2006, 12:49:30 AM
Post by: charaman on November 07, 2006, 01:12:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Osmose
quote: Originally posted by Almeidaboo
I`m sure that I`m 100% different from politicians. Otherwise, please, kill me, cause I`m a real plague.
You're an anarchist?
Benevolent anarchy interspersed with unified democracy for the win.
w00t to the final goal of utopian communism!
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 07, 2006, 01:23:29 AM
lol, wow
Anyways, what I basically said is. I'm not talking about the death penalty in the US because I know there are too many imperfections in the Court System for that to ever be reliable enough to use with good conscious. What I'm talking about is specifically Saddam's execution. I believe it is most undeniably just. I believe he should be hung. But then again, we all keep saying, "I believe" and for that reason this subject will most likely never be settled.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 01:28:00 AM
But now everything is moving in circles.
I gotta ask you guys this....
What kind of reprecussions do you think this will have on the world, Iraq and the USA, if Any?
We established what our views all are in regards to the Means...
But if this is the Means, what do you think th end will be?
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 07, 2006, 01:34:00 AM
As for the impact it will have... Some people will rejoice, some people will be angry and shoot other people. Then the rejoicing people will shoot back. While this is going on, people in the US will be arguing whether or not to stay and fix the mess Bush caused, although I think we can all agree getting Saddam out of power was a good thing, reguardless of the US government's true intentions.
So yeah, not a very good outcome, but it would've happened reguardless of his sentencing.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 01:41:10 AM
Im trying to imagine what the outcome will be in the other countries of the middle east and the terrorist groups, and extremists.
I think Sadam is a safer traget than Osama would have been.
I think alot more people would be Shouting "jihad" had it been a more religious figure, as opposed to saddam (who is much more aptly labeld a political criminal than a religious extremist.)
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 07, 2006, 01:47:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
Sorry dren. I wasnt trying to be codescending.
Im trying to imagine what the outcome will be in the other countries of the middle east and the terrorist groups, and extremists.
I think Sadam is a safer traget than Osama would have been.
I think alot more people would be Shouting "jihad" had it been a more religious figure, as opposed to saddam (who is much more aptly labeld a political criminal than a religious extremist.)
It's cool.
I don't know about Osama, he defintiely would've inspired more anger than Saddam. But I'm not sure he's even still alive. But he could very well be, it's just very uncertain.
Post by: I Have a Sandwich on November 07, 2006, 01:51:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by charaman
quote: Originally posted by Osmose
quote: Originally posted by Almeidaboo
I`m sure that I`m 100% different from politicians. Otherwise, please, kill me, cause I`m a real plague.
You're an anarchist?
Benevolent anarchy interspersed with unified democracy for the win.
w00t to the final goal of utopian communism!
Huzzah!
Post by: Cosmos on November 07, 2006, 02:03:25 AM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 03:03:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
*Edit* I wasn't using God to justify anything, I was saying if you want to bring the whole playing God thing into it, you gotta look at the facts. Don't try feeding me that crap that being young means I should want murderers to go free, that I should want a known committer of GENOCIDE to live. That I should want the man that killed my uncle go free. Yeah, that's right, My uncle is dead because of Saddam Hussein.
Almei, I realize that you are passionate about not liking Bush, but you don't live in America, you really haven't experienced him first hand.
I realize he isn't the best president ever, and he has made some huge mistakes. But calling him a murderer on Saddam's level is a bit uneducated. Yes, Bush did push for the war. No, Bush is not responsible for the war by himself. Yes, some unethical treatment of prisoners has occured. No, Bush did not sit down and order those prisoners to be tortured, that was the order of the commanding officer in that area.
Bush put the idea of war up to congress, and in a bipartisan (meaning both republican and democratic senators/reps) movement they decided to pass the declaration of war. Thus sending america to war. Basically, by calling Bush a murderer because of the war, you are calling every senator that voted for the war, and every house rep that voted for it, a murderer. Which means you are calling every voter that voted for them murderers. Do you think all of America is on Saddam's level?
Saddam on the other hand, had a totalitarian rule on his country, he decided one day he was going to go murder a butt load of kuwait citizens. He single handedly ordered a genocide. No senate, no house, no votes, his word only. Get your facts straight before you rant.
And mid. I realize that it costs more money to kill someone (thanks to the appeals process) than it does to keep them alive. My problem isn't with how much money, it's what my money is being spent on. I don't like the thought that my tax payer money (and yes, I do pay taxes) is supporting the life of a murder. And that is really stupid saying that just because we support the death penalty means we don't care who dies. Things aren't perfect yet, we do still make mistakes, and yes, I feel bad every time someone unjustly dies. But you have to admit we make far less mistakes now than we did. At least now we actually have fair trials, dna evidence, appeals courts, etc...
You say eye for an eye and the world goes blind, but what happens when the whole world turns the other cheek?
And Plight, I don't know if you realize it or not, but that is the biggest load of uneducated crap I've ever seen towards the bottom there. Do me a favor and leave canda, go to college in America, take political science classes, and research this on your own before you go off spouting what you've heard your parents say for years...
And to all the foreign people, please stop blindly assuming everything your government and media tells you is true, you all don't have the slightest idea how American government works, it's alot more simple than the President handing down an order.
Sorry guys but, Ive got a bit to say aboot this.
Glitch, I dont quote my Parents. And I sure as hell would never Attend an American School.
Do you realize that Canadian Students are taught about the same amount of subject matter pertaining to American Politics and Culture as are American Students? Not to Mention, We digest Our Own Countries History and Sociopolitical systems?
Take your extroverted imperialism and shove it up your cakehole Kid.
Im alot less "Under educated" than you think.
Your president, as of right now, is an Idiot.
American Imperialst attitudes toward a world that is struggling with
hurrdling toward global integration,and trying to impose self serving Global Policies for the motivations of Global dominance, proves that America, However much I like the residents, Has alot of Growing up to Do.
You can Badmouth my opinion, but dont slander my country.
Its americans like you that feed a negative global stereotype.
You can reply to this if you want, Glitch, but im offended dude. And I have nothing more to say here that wouldnt get me banned.
If you want to argue about my "Idiocy" then PM me, douche.
Post by: Shady Ultima on November 07, 2006, 03:29:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
And Plight, I don't know if you realize it or not, but that is the biggest load of uneducated crap I've ever seen towards the bottom there. Do me a favor and leave canda, go to college in America, take political science classes, and research this on your own before you go off spouting what you've heard your parents say for years...
How bout you do the opposite? America is corrupt. I could go and take a political science class in America, and it would teach me that America is God's holy land (exaggeration)
You're talkin crap right now about Canadians. I may not be the most educated in the matter, but you know even less it seems.
I assume you were referring to this :
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
I have trouble even trying to relate objectivly to a government that puts secret concentration camps up in My own Country, and denys their existance. I have trouble with an government that imposes global order with its collection of "The biggest supply of NUkes at G.Dubyas Nulcear arms lot!". I have trouble with Governments that fund radical terrorist groups until the groups dont agree with their policies any more.
How bout we do a little research eh?
Starting with the Radical terrorist groups.
I'll quote Wiki, which has links to sites where they are referenced as well.
Quote
From Wikipedia
Robin Cook, former leader of the British House of Commons and Foreign Secretary from 1997-2001, wrote in The Guardian on Friday, July 8, 2005,
Osama bin Laden
Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.[22]
Osama bin Laden
However, Peter Bergen, a CNN journalist and adjunct professor who is known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997, refuted Cook's notion, stating on August 15, 2006, the following:
Osama bin Laden
The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.
The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.[23]
Osama bin Laden
It is more likely that the CIA was concerned and watching Osama bin Laden at least by early 1995 due to the discovery of the Oplan Bojinka plot which in part involved a suicide airplane attack on CIA Headquarters.
About Hussien now
Quote
From Wikipedia
In 1957, at age 20, Saddam joined the revolutionary pan-Arab Ba'ath Party, of which his uncle was a supporter.
Saddam was shot in the leg, but escaped to Tikrit with the help of CIA and Egyptian intelligence agents. Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred to Beirut for a brief CIA training course. From there he moved to Cairo where he made frequent visits to the American embassy. During this time the CIA placed him in a upper-class apartment observed by CIA and Egyptian operatives. (UPI 'analysis' article)
In 1958, a year after Saddam had joined the Ba'ath party, army officers led by General Abdul Karim Qassim overthrew Faisal II of Iraq. The Ba'athists opposed the new government, and in 1959, Saddam was involved in the attempted United States-backed plot to assassinate Qassim.[12]Concerned about Qassim's growing ties to Communists, the CIA gave assistance to the Ba'ath Party and other regime opponents.[6] Army officers with ties to the Ba'ath Party overthrew Qassim in a coup in 1963. Ba'athist leaders were appointed to the cabinet and Abdul Salam Arif became president. Arif dismissed and arrested the Ba'athist leaders later that year. Saddam returned to Iraq, but was imprisoned in 1964. He escaped prison in 1967 and quickly became a leading member of the party. In 1968, Saddam participated in a bloodless coup led by Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr that overthrew Abdul Rahman Arif. al-Bakr was named president and Saddam was named his deputy. Saddam soon became the regime's strongman. According to biographers, Saddam never forgot the tensions within the first Ba'athist government, which informed his measures to promote Ba'ath party unity as well as his ruthless resolve to maintain power and programs to ensure social stability.
Soon after becoming deputy to the president, Saddam demanded and received the rank of four-star general despite his lack of military training.[7]
In 1976, Saddam rose to the position of general in the Iraqi armed forces, and rapidly became the strongman of the government. At the time Saddam was considered an enemy of Communism and radical Islamism. Saddam was integral to U.S. policy in the region, a policy which sought to weaken the influence of Iran and the Soviet Union.
After Khomeini gained power, skirmishes between Iraq and revolutionary Iran occurred for ten months over the sovereignty of the disputed Arvandrud/Shatt al-Arab waterway, which divides the two countries. During this period, Saddam Hussein continually maintained that it was in Iraq's interest not to engage with Iran, and that it was in the interests of both nations to maintain peaceful relations. However, in a private meeting with Salah Omar Al-Ali, Iraq's permanent ambassador to the United Nations, he revealed that he intended to invade and occupy a large part of Iran within months. Iraq invaded Iran by attacking Mehrabad Airport of Tehran and entering the oil-rich Iranian land of Khuzestan, which also has a sizeable Arab minority, on September 22, 1980 and declared it a new province of Iraq. The United Nations and the United States supported him with artillery and medical supplies during this time.
On March 16, 1988, the Kurdish town of Halabja was attacked with a mix of mustard gas and nerve agents, killing 5,000 civilians, and maiming, disfiguring, or seriously debilitating 10,000 more. (see Halabja poison gas attack) [18]. The attack occurred in conjunction with the 1988 al-Anfal campaign designed to reassert central control of the mostly Kurdish population of areas of northern Iraq and defeat the Kurdish peshmerga rebel forces. The United States now maintains that Saddam ordered the attack to terrorize the Kurdish population in northern Iraq ([19]), but Saddam's regime claimed at the time that Iran was responsible for the attack[11] and the US supported the claim until the early 1990s.
The Kuwaiti monarchy further angered Saddam by allegedly slant drilling oil out of wells that Iraq considered to be within its disputed border with Kuwait. Given that at the time Iraq was not regarded as a pariah state, Saddam was able to complain about the alleged slant drilling to the U.S. State Department. Although this had continued for years, Saddam now needed oil money to stem a looming economic crisis. Saddam still had an experienced and well-equipped army, which he used to influence regional affairs. He later ordered troops to the Iraq-Kuwait border.
As Iraq-Kuwait relations rapidly deteriorated, Saddam was receiving conflicting information about how the U.S. would respond to the prospects of an invasion. For one, Washington had been taking measures to cultivate a constructive relationship with Iraq for roughly a decade. [citation needed] The U.S. also sent billions of dollars to Saddam to keep him from forming a strong alliance with the Soviets. [12]
U.S. ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie met with Saddam in an emergency meeting on July 25, 1990, where the Iraqi leader stated his intention to continue talks. U.S. officials attempted to maintain a conciliatory line with Iraq, indicating that while George H. W. Bush and James Baker did not want force used, they would not take any position on the Iraq-Kuwait boundary dispute and did not want to become involved. The transcript, however, does not show any explicit statement of approval of, acceptance of, or foreknowledge of the invasion. Later, Iraq and Kuwait then met for a final negotiation session, which failed. Saddam then sent his troops into Kuwait.
Detroit awarded Saddam Hussein a key to the city in 1980, because of contributions to several local Detroit Catholic Churches, in particular a $170,000 donation to a church that was in heavy debt [14][15].
I can't find any references about the concentration camps, but it is well known, in both Canada and America that America's nukes are on Canadian soil. Why? Because when America is asked by the UN where they are, they can say they're not on American soil, and not be lying, not to mention that to go from Canada to anywhere is easier then anywhere in the US.
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on November 07, 2006, 03:37:28 AM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 03:38:11 AM
But they are in fact real.
I used to smoke doobies outside of one.
Post by: Anubis_Soldier on November 07, 2006, 03:44:12 AM
Post by: Glitch on November 07, 2006, 03:58:29 AM
I respect the people that disagree with me. I may disagree with them, but I respect that they deserve an opinion. You don't see me bashing Mid because she doesn't believe in the death penalty. You however, are pompous little canadian prick that insists on not only putting down the people who believe like I do, but insulting our country. For God sake Plight, I thought you left this forum a while ago.
As far as concentration camps go in America, those were created during WWII after Pearl Harbor. They were used to detain Japanese citizens. It was wrong, it was unethical, but we weren't murdering them. Now, what that has to do with the current situation, I don't know, granted I don't really care how you managed to make the connection.
You might benefit from an American school, you see, our schools are paid for by the students, meaning that the school has to use the money to greatly improve the school so that students keep coming. In canadia the government pays for the schools, meaning that they have no reason to improve the schools, they're fine just how they are, who needs improvement in the "great" country of Canada.
If you want to really learn how the government of America works you can't just go to High school, you have to go to college too. Highschool teaches next to nothing about how the government really works.
As far as imperialism goes, I could care less if your crap hole of a country turned into America. I've been to Canada, it's like the poor version of America, it sucked. In case you haven't noticed, America doesn't go around just changing countries every day. But you know what, sorry, forgive us for taking a madman out of power, forgive us for not supporting a regime that murders its citizens, soooo sorry.
As far as my president being an idiot. I fail to see why your opinion of him would matter to me. You can't do anything about it... sucks to be you doesn't it?
To be perfectly honest, I fail to see how America has forced its agenda on the rest of the world.
Don't you dare ever sit there an insult me, my country, and my beliefs then claim I'm slandering your country.
*To any other Canadians beside Plight, I have nothing against any of you. Especially Mr.Mister who I have respect for, I won't lie, I don't like your country, but I like the rest of you. Plight however I have absolutely no respect for.*
Post by: Shady Ultima on November 07, 2006, 04:05:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
But you know what, sorry, forgive us for taking a madman out of power, forgive us for not supporting a regime that murders its citizens, soooo sorry.
To be perfectly honest, I fail to see how America has forced its agenda on the rest of the world.
*Looks at my last post*
A madman that you trained, and completely supported in EVERYTHING, INCLUDING THE KUWAIT WAR!
How has America forced its agenda on the rest of the world? Why did they go to Iraq? If you don't know the real reason you're blind. Let's look at the original name of the war in Iraq.
Operation
Iraqi
Liberation
Read down, what does it spell. OIL. I'm not defending Saddam, but America attacked not because of his Kuwait genocide 10 years ago, but because he was going to stop supplying America with oil.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 04:05:59 AM
If you want to argue. Pm me. Dont Call on issues that were resolved 2 weeks ago as fodder for your fire.
You dont know anything about the canadian school system aside from the fact that its government Funded.
Anyhow, Like I said, Tomorrow sometime, Ill post some links to information on the Camps. And The Schools Here too. And the War of 18 12. And Manifest Destiny, even though by the sounds of it, youve got that mentality down already.
Post by: MrMister on November 07, 2006, 04:15:05 AM
Post by: Glitch on November 07, 2006, 04:20:58 AM
And I know plenty about the Canadian school system, it's considered a joke.
Shady, perhaps you don't realize, we went to Iraq the first time in response to the Kuwait invasion, you know, the one saddam ordered, where he tried to commit genocide on citizens that weren't his. To be honest, I don't care if this war was about Oil, I could care less at this point. We took Saddam out of power, we gave Iraq a new chance at a Government. The man who killed my uncle is finally going to pay for killing him, his citizens, the kuwaitis.
Eh, I've lost interest in this argument. Arguing with Plight any longer is pointless, the chances of him saying something intelligent and educated about Ameirca are absurdly slim.
Heck, you know what, you're right Plight, we are evil here in America. We are soooo imperialistic and evil. You know, when I got up this morning and ate my frosted flakes I said to myself "Gee, I can't wait to force my beliefs and values on the unsuspecting other countries.
I'll tell you what Plight, on behalf of all Americans, I say this to you.
Go have sex with yourself *** Dumpster. And no, I'm not pming you, I could care less if people get mad at me, I'm enjoying venting and getting my rage out.
*edit* Sorry Mr.Mister, I dislike Canada in the same way you dislike America. But I don't have anything against it's people, 'cept plight.
Post by: Weregnome on November 07, 2006, 04:29:14 AM
Saddam would be stupid to keep alive as if he was imprisoned, someone could get him out. They plane-destroyed the twin towers, i'm sure someone could get him out. That could cause some serious problems. In addition, alot of small countries have horrible dictators too, who if they were gone and a proper government installed, maybe these countries could begin to 'survive'.
I don't do law, or anything to that matter. I just think that this is what the Iraqi people have been wanting all their lives. Those still reside under pro-saddam will probably cause problems, however, a publiuc execution may show that the new iraqi government is strong and for the people.
Post by: MrMister on November 07, 2006, 04:29:29 AM
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on November 07, 2006, 04:29:48 AM
To be honest though, I'm getting tired of these country disputes. You're not on a countries soil. You wanna show national pride, knock youself out, but this is the internet. It shouldn't matter where the hell you come from, as all that matters is what you type and how you express yourself. Don't try and start **** at every turn. I mean, has Saddam even been mentioned as the key topic in the last 2 pages?
EDIT: As for Canada, without you, where would we get the mindless assanine violent sport known as ice hockey? Or maple leafs? Or Pamela Anderson?
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 04:32:39 AM
The Canadian School System is a Joke? Have you ever been here? Some of Our Universities are at the cutting edge of genetic research, and robotics, and alternative energy sources, and Schitzophrenia treatments and a million other things.
It strage that you say that, because Ive honestly never heard anyone speak Ill of Canadian Schools, Aside from the few Instances of Shootings....All Five of Em.
Dont Put words in my mouth.
You seem to be upset that Shady is providing reseach into this.
Come off your soapbox, dude.
Post by: Shady Ultima on November 07, 2006, 04:34:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
And I know plenty about the Canadian school system, it's considered a joke.
Not quite... I'd have to do some research on that myself, but aside from the Ivy League schools, America's school system is just as bad.
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
Shady, perhaps you don't realize, we went to Iraq the first time in response to the Kuwait invasion, you know, the one saddam ordered, where he tried to commit genocide on citizens that weren't his. To be honest, I don't care if this war was about Oil, I could care less at this point. We took Saddam out of power, we gave Iraq a new chance at a Government. The man who killed my uncle is finally going to pay for killing him, his citizens, the kuwaitis.
Yea, I know you went to Iraq in response to the Kuwait invasion. So, you already took care of that. He's upset that America BETRAYED HIM! America supported him on the Kuwait invasion, then turned around and decided to try and stop him.
I don't really think Iraq even wants a new government. The amount of resistance over there seems to point to the opposite.
And we now see the truth to your arguments. Your uncle was killed.
To be honest, that's a half decent excuse. But to be ranting and raving on a internet forum is prolly not the right way to deal with that.
Post by: Glitch on November 07, 2006, 04:48:25 AM
My uncle isn't a new discovery, I said that a while back in this topic.
My uncle died because of incredibly deadly weapons designed for nothing more than killing people. Weapons that the rest of the world claims he didn't posses. They may not have been nukes, but Saddam's own blend of toxic gasses is just as bad in my opinion.
Yes, He did think we betrayed him, but we didn't support his attack on Kuwait. The moment the attack began we complied with the UN, we agreed to the economic sanctions, and we went to war, along with 20 other countries in the united nations.
I'm not gonna deny that we shouldn't have supported Saddam, but when we first supported him he wasn't crazy. He was normal, no different than supporting Tony Blair or any other leader. Unfortunately he ended up being a religious fanatic, and psycho.
So yes, I admit that was a mistake on America, I just don't like that the rest of the world is now yelling at us for trying to fix our mistake. It's one of those no win situations.
And yes, there is alot of resistance to a new govt, but those are Shiites, supporters of Saddam himself. A large portion of the country agrees with him being taken down. As well as alot of Arab americans, like Iraqis that escaped, I know a few of those.
By saying Canada's school system is a joke I was referring to the fact that it has been the butt of many jokes here in America, especially by stand up comedians.
and Shady, America has a very good college school system, even besides Ivy League. Every state has several exceptional colleges specializing in various fields of studies. I'm sure Canada has some good schools as well, but lets face it, it's not known for it's exceptional school system.
I'm sorry to anyone I offended, except Plight. This is a very touchy subject for me, it gets me angry when people go and trivialize something people have died for.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 05:04:02 AM
Man, youve got alot of growing up to do.
Sure its touchy, but People die on both sides, and if you could suck it up, and listen, youd undertand that there is two sides to every war.
I dont care if you want to offend me or not.
But despize housed from an ideological difference, is no better a mentality that whoever it is that killed your kin.
Anyhow, Im gonna say, Im sorry if I offended you glitch. Because thats what Adults do. Suck it up. But remember, the other sides victims have families too
Post by: Shady Ultima on November 07, 2006, 05:04:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
I'm trying to not get angry this time around.
My uncle isn't a new discovery, I said that a while back in this topic.
My uncle died because of incredibly deadly weapons designed for nothing more than killing people. Weapons that the rest of the world claims he didn't posses. They may not have been nukes, but Saddam's own blend of toxic gasses is just as bad in my opinion.
I apologize, I must have missed that part. And its good, keep your temper, when you think rationally, you can debate better.
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
Yes, He did think we betrayed him, but we didn't support his attack on Kuwait. The moment the attack began we complied with the UN, we agreed to the economic sanctions, and we went to war, along with 20 other countries in the united nations.
I'm not gonna deny that we shouldn't have supported Saddam, but when we first supported him he wasn't crazy. He was normal, no different than supporting Tony Blair or any other leader. Unfortunately he ended up being a religious fanatic, and psycho.
So yes, I admit that was a mistake on America, I just don't like that the rest of the world is now yelling at us for trying to fix our mistake. It's one of those no win situations.
At that time, America was far more worried about the Soviets, and were paying Saddam off to not ally with them. Thus, when he wanted to attack the Kuwaits (for believing they were trying to invade Iraq) the Americans did not try to stop him right away.
America can have its mistakes, the problem is the fact that instead of admitting they made a mistake they hide it. They use the CIA to say "We never did that" and any one who argues 'disappears'. I'm not attacking America here, but the CIA in this regard are working the same as Hitler's Secret Police.
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
And yes, there is alot of resistance to a new govt, but those are Shiites, supporters of Saddam himself. A large portion of the country agrees with him being taken down. As well as alot of Arab americans, like Iraqis that escaped, I know a few of those.
This is true, but even the people who don't want Saddam back don't want a 'better government' just a better dictator.
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
By saying Canada's school system is a joke I was referring to the fact that it has been the butt of many jokes here in America, especially by stand up comedians.
and Shady, America has a very good college school system, even besides Ivy League. Every state has several exceptional colleges specializing in various fields of studies. I'm sure Canada has some good schools as well, but lets face it, it's not known for it's exceptional school system.
Well, you should state that you mean that they are joked about. Saying they are a joke makes it sound like we have no good ones at all, which is of course, completely untrue.
The simple fact is, a lot of Canadians don't tend to brag about their schools, and Canada is not known for a lot of the things it has as well. A lot of our reputation is the fact that we are very neutral about our own reputation. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good American schools, but there are just as good Canadian schools, albeit less, because we have a lesser population
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on November 07, 2006, 05:14:06 AM
Post by: Shady Ultima on November 07, 2006, 05:17:48 AM
I wasn't attacking the CIA, I apologize if you took it that way.
All I meant is, when America needs to cover something up, the CIA is their newspaper.
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 07, 2006, 05:19:44 AM
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on November 07, 2006, 05:22:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by drenrin2120
Yeah, and other coutnries don't have this? I'd bet my life savings (43.27) that almost every country out there that means anything has an organization just like our CIA and FBI.
*Cough*INTERPOL*/cough*
Post by: Glitch on November 07, 2006, 05:24:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by drenrin2120
Yeah, and other coutnries don't have this? I'd bet my life savings (43.27)
lol, that's great. But yeah, pretty much every country has it's own secret police. Yes, America like every other country has it's own secret police, but we don't kill people when we need to cover something up, we're more creative... ;)
Canada has its own secret police too... an organization far more terrifying than the gestapo....
.... The Mounties...
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 07, 2006, 05:25:24 AM
XD
Post by: Glitch on November 07, 2006, 05:28:32 AM
Come on y'all, give peace a chance. :D
Whoa, I just noticed that IHAS is now ZerokirbyX again... cool.
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on November 07, 2006, 05:29:10 AM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 05:30:21 AM
Our Secret Police is the CSIS.
Id like to call off hostilites as well....theres no need to diregard another opinion, because it dosent concurr with your own
Post by: Glitch on November 07, 2006, 05:30:40 AM
Post by: Shady Ultima on November 07, 2006, 05:33:11 AM
Maybe that's cause I'm not a politician. I guess if a politician goes "Sorry guys, we made a mistake here, we're gonna go try and fix it" People wouldn't vote for them again.
Not that Bush would have had to worry. But, I don't want to get into it.
And yea, Mounties do look goofy, but meh, wat's Canada without them. It's like America without the Eagle (bad comparison I know) or England without the Royal Guard.
Post by: Linkizcool on November 07, 2006, 05:36:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Glitch
quote: Originally posted by drenrin2120
Yeah, and other coutnries don't have this? I'd bet my life savings (43.27)
lol, that's great. But yeah, pretty much every country has it's own secret police. Yes, America like every other country has it's own secret police, but we don't kill people when we need to cover something up, we're more creative... ;)
Canada has its own secret police too... an organization far more terrifying than the gestapo....
.... The Mounties...
CICS
Duh.
Post by: MrMister on November 07, 2006, 05:45:14 AM
I can't believe a thread about Saddam got some drama mixed in.. bwahaha.
Shady: I have lived in Canada since I was like 5, and I have never seen a mounty in person. They are not important at all.
Also, we probably have more eagles than you. _veryangry_
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 05:51:02 AM
I miss BC.
Best place ever.
Post by: Shady Ultima on November 07, 2006, 06:15:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by MrMister
Shady: I have lived in Canada since I was like 5, and I have never seen a mounty in person. They are not important at all.
Also, we probably have more eagles than you.
Hmm, you know. I've seen one in my life. I've lived in Canada my entire life too. They're not important, they're like a tourist thing.
And you're right, you most definately have more eagles. I've seen maybe one, and only a few hawks either.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 06:23:11 AM
But I live like, 4 blocks from the lakefront, so I imagine they dont stray too far into the filthygross city.
wow. The topic is suddently pleasant.
Post by: Drace on November 07, 2006, 06:33:17 AM
My opinion time:
This guy killed hundreds of people, maybe even thousands. Sure, we can't play god, but he has it coming to get murdered himself. I believe in karma, not big, but I believe that being good will get you a good life and being bad will get you a bad life. Well Sadam's karma kicked his ***. He deserves to die.
That said, I also wanna add I'm not pro-death penalty. At least, not till a certain ammount.
Has a guy killed one, two, three, nineteen or twenty people? Let him rot for ever. But if the number goes to high, into the hundreds, then it has to stop.
ON THE HANGING PART: Quite barbaric, but who cares? They could've decided to kill him with a rusty nail.
Post by: Osmose on November 07, 2006, 11:36:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
Dude, theres the odd eagle in toronto that makes its way across lake ontario (Or at least i assume thats how they got here)
But I live like, 4 blocks from the lakefront, so I imagine they dont stray too far into the filthygross city.
wow. The topic is suddently pleasant.
Kinda makes me sick to my stomach. I was hoping to tell you all off, too. :|
Post by: Glitch on November 07, 2006, 01:13:37 PM
Oh, and I was joking about the mounties guys. why do you think I said "an organization far more terrifying then the gestapo...."
I read a book once about different espionage agencies around the world, like MI6, the Secret Service, all that stuff. The book said that the mounties are the secret service of Canada, and it made me think, it's gotta be tough to be secretive on horse back in a red outfit.
On teh topic of Saddam. Did you guys know that he used to write romance novels?
Post by: Grandy on November 07, 2006, 02:47:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Almeidaboo
I`m sure that I`m 100% different from politicians. Otherwise, please, kill me, cause I`m a real plague.
*cocks shotgun*
What you prefer, head or heart?
Last I reccal, politician also use the same thing you're using: Blaming others.
Of 'course, the majority elected them, maybe even you voted on them. But that doesn't take all the obligations from your back.
That's like throwing garbage on the street, and if I policeman tried to stop you you'd say "But hey! It's not my fault the streets are dirty! The politician should invest more money on keeping the city clean. What are we paying them for? If my garbage is on the street, it's because they haven't done anything about it."
Post by: Cosmos on November 07, 2006, 03:44:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shady Ultima
Operation
Iraqi
Liberation
Read down, what does it spell. OIL. I'm not defending Saddam, but America attacked not because of his Kuwait genocide 10 years ago, but because he was going to stop supplying America with oil.
That's dumb... that's like me saying, 9/11 OMG THE POLICE DID IT. Ya know? Also, I hate 9/11. I hate everything about it, I hate the fact that people talk nonstop about it PLZ SHUT UP ABOUT 9/11. Bastards.. and sorry glitch but at least half of america is filled with ignorant people. I hate when they come to new york, STAY OUT OF MY CITTTTTYYYYYY *foamy voice* That is all... I'll read everything else later <.<
Post by: Revolution911 on November 07, 2006, 03:46:08 PM
KNOCK KNOCK.
(Who's there?)
AGOVE
(Agove who?)
A GOVERNMENT FUNDED CANADIAN SCHOOL ROFL
Seriously what the hell. I've never heard a joke about a Canadian school. That's so ridiculous xD. I've never even heard a comedian talk about a Canadian school. The fact of the matter is, America doesent give enough of a shit about Canadian schools to make a joke about them. I have yet to see a GOOD american school, either way.
Not to bring up shit that's 2 pages back, but come the **** on xD.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 04:15:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Revolution911
HEY GUYS.
KNOCK KNOCK.
(Who's there?)
AGOVE
(Agove who?)
A GOVERNMENT FUNDED CANADIAN SCHOOL ROFL
Seriously what the hell. I've never heard a joke about a Canadian school. That's so ridiculous xD. I've never even heard a comedian talk about a Canadian school. The fact of the matter is, America doesent give enough of a shit about Canadian schools to make a joke about them. I have yet to see a GOOD american school, either way.
Not to bring up shit that's 2 pages back, but come the **** on xD.
That makes me giggle a little.
Candadian Schools arent run by the federal government either. Its provincial matter...So to say "OMFGLMAO canda skool" is very silly indeed...every provinces schools are ranked...it all depends on the quality of life in the province mentioned.
Our Universities are pretty Sweet.
SFU and the UofA are both quite awesomesauce.
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 07, 2006, 04:25:09 PM
I agree with Rev completely, though I never looked at it like that, evne though it's true. American Public schools suck some serious ***. Trust me, I've been to a lot of them. It's cuz the government doesn't give two shits about a bunch of people they think are all gonna end up on welfare anyway. ...bastards.
lol, plight, for a second I though you said the Universities of STFU and of course, GTFO.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 04:36:09 PM
I went to school in 3 different provinces in Canada...And all three provinces had awesome schools, despite some foibles.
Each provinces school system was generally the same...just the cirriculum changes from province to province.
There isnt much of a difference really.
We also, like our southern neigbors, have private schools, public schools, home schools...
Not to mention there are some less-talked about schools...alternatives to public and private that are popping up...
In some areas in Canada, Idependant, self sufficient communes have been popping up, with their own comunity-based schools. And from what ive read there is some really cool things being taught there.
I personally, am All for the alternative schooling methods, which in most cases arent government funded...but thats another rant.
Post by: Smokey_locs2006 on November 07, 2006, 06:47:56 PM
(Like most races do)
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 07, 2006, 07:20:49 PM
Anyhow.
There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. Ask yourself if you really want to be on Ashcroft's list.
The Rex 84 Program was established on the reasoning that if a "mass exodus" of illegal aliens crossed the Mexican/US border, they would be quickly rounded up and detained in detention centers by FEMA. Rex 84 allowed many military bases to be closed down and to be turned into prisons.
Operation Cable Splicer and Garden Plot are the two sub programs which will be implemented once the Rex 84 program is initiated for its proper purpose. Garden Plot is the program to control the population. Cable Splicer is the program for an orderly takeover of the state and local governments by the federal government. FEMA is the executive arm of the coming police state and thus will head up all operations. The Presidential Executive Orders already listed on the Federal Register also are part of the legal framework for this operation.
The camps all have railroad facilities as well as roads leading to and from the detention facilities. Many also have an airport nearby. The majority of the camps can house a population of 20,000 prisoners. Currently, the largest of these facilities is just outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. The Alaskan facility is a massive mental health facility and can hold approximately 2 million people.
Now let's review the justification for any actions taken...
Executive Orders associated with FEMA that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years and could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen:...
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990
allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995
allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997
allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998
allows the government to seize all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports, and waterways.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999
allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000
allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001
allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002
designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005
allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051
specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310
grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049
assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921
allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation. General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division stated in a 1983 conference that he saw FEMA's role as a "new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis." FEMA's powers were consolidated by President Carter to incorporate the...
National Security Act of 1947
allows for the strategic relocation of industries, services, government and other essential economic activities, and to rationalize the requirements for manpower, resources and production facilities.
1950 Defense Production Act
gives the President sweeping powers over all aspects of the economy.
Act of August 29, 1916
authorizes the Secretary of the Army, in time of war, to take possession of any transportation system for transporting troops, material, or any other purpose related to the emergency.
International Emergency Economic Powers Act
enables the President to seize the property of a foreign country or national. These powers were transferred to FEMA in a sweeping consolidation in 1979.
Where are these camps?
ALABAMA
Opelika - Military compound either in or very near town.
Aliceville - WWII German POW camp - capacity 15,000
Ft. McClellan (Anniston) - Opposite side of town from Army Depot;
Maxwell AFB (Montgomery) - Civilian prison camp established under Operation Garden Plot, currently operating with support staff and small inmate population.
Talladega - Federal prison "satellite" camp.
ALASKA
Wilderness - East of Anchorage. No roads, Air & Railroad access only. Estimated capacity of 500,000 Elmendorf AFB - Northeast area of Anchorage - far end of base. Garden Plot facility.
Eielson AFB - Southeast of Fairbanks. Operation Garden Plot facility.
Ft. Wainwright - East of Fairbanks
ARIZONA
Ft. Huachuca - 20 miles from Mexican border, 30 miles from Nogales Rex '84 facility.
Pinal County - on the Gila River - WWII Japanese detention camp. May be renovated.
Yuma County - Colorado River - Site of former Japanese detention camp (near proving grounds). This site was completely removed in 1990 according to some reports.
Phoenix - Federal Prison Satellite Camp. Main federal facility expanded.
Florence - WWII prison camp NOW RENOVATED, OPERATIONAL with staff & 400 prisoners, operational capacity of 3,500.
Wickenburg - Airport is ready for conversion; total capacity unknown. Davis-Monthan AFB (Tucson) - Fully staffed and presently holding prisoners!!
Sedona - site of possible UN base.
ARKANSAS
Ft. Chaffee (near Fort Smith, Arkansas) - Has new runway for aircraft, new camp facility with cap of 40,000 prisoners Pine Bluff Arsenal - This location also is the repository for B-Z nerve agent, which causes sleepiness, dizziness, stupor; admitted use is for civilian control. Jerome - Chicot/Drew Counties - site of WWII Japanese camps Rohwer - Descha County - site of WWII Japanese camps Blythville AFB - Closed airbase now being used as camp. New wooden barracks have been constructed at this location. Classic decorations - guard towers, barbed wire, high fences. Berryville - FEMA facility located east of Eureka Springs off Hwy. 62. Omaha - Northeast of Berryville near Missouri state line, on Hwy 65 south of old wood processing plant. Possible crematory facility.
CALIFORNIA
Vandenburg AFB - Rex 84 facility, located near Lompoc & Santa Maria. Internment facility is located near the oceanside, close to Space Launch Complex #6, also called "Slick Six". The launch site has had "a flawless failure record" and is rarely used. Norton AFB - (closed base) now staffed with UN according to some sources. Tule Lake - area of "wildlife refuge", accessible by unpaved road, just inside Modoc County. Fort Ord - Closed in 1994, this facility is now an urban warfare training center for US and foreign troops, and may have some "P.O.W. - C.I." enclosures. Twentynine Palms Marine Base - Birthplace of the infamous "Would you shoot American citizens?" Quiz. New camps being built on "back 40". Oakdale - Rex 84 camp capable of holding at least 20,000 people. 90 mi. East of San Francisco. Terminal Island - (Long Beach) located next to naval shipyards operated by ChiCom shipping interests. Federal prison facility located here. Possible deportation point. Ft. Irwin - FEMA facility near Barstow. Base is designated inactive but has staffed camp. McClellan AFB - facility capable for 30,000 - 35,000 Sacramento - Army Depot - No specific information at this time. Mather AFB - Road to facility is blocked off by cement barriers and a stop sign. Sign states area is restricted; as of 1997 there were barbed wire fences pointing inward, a row of stadium lights pointed toward an empty field, etc. Black boxes on poles may have been cameras.
COLORADO
Trinidad - WWII German/Italian camp being renovated. Granada - Prowers County - WWII Japanese internment camp Ft. Carson - Along route 115 near Canon City
CONNECTICUT, DELAWARE
No data available.
FLORIDA
Avon Park - Air Force gunnery range, Avon Park has an on-base "correctional facility" which was a former WWII detention camp. Camp Krome - DoJ detention/interrogation center, Rex 84 facility Eglin AFB - This base is over 30 miles long, from Pensacola to Hwy 331 in De Funiak Springs. High capacity facility, presently manned and populated with some prisoners. Pensacola - Federal Prison Camp Everglades - It is believed that a facility may be carved out of the wilds here.
GEORGIA
Ft. Benning - Located east of Columbus near Alabama state line. Rex 84 site - Prisoners brought in via Lawson Army airfield. Ft. Mc Pherson - US Force Command - Multiple reports that this will be the national headquarters and coordinating center for foreign/UN troop movement and detainee collection. Ft. Gordon - West of Augusta - No information at this time. Unadilla - Dooly County - Manned, staffed FEMA prison on route 230, no prisoners. Oglethorpe - Macon County; facility is located five miles from Montezuma, three miles from Oglethorpe. This FEMA prison has no staff and no prisoners. Morgan - Calhoun County, FEMA facility is fully manned & staffed - no prisoners. Camilla - Mitchell County, south of Albany. This FEMA facility is located on Mt. Zion Rd approximately 5.7 miles south of Camilla. Unmanned - no prisoners, no staff. Hawkinsville - Wilcox County; Five miles east of town, fully manned and staffed but no prisoners. Located on fire road 100/Upper River Road Abbeville - South of Hawkinsville on US route 129; south of town off route 280 near Ocmulgee River. FEMA facility is staffed but without prisoners. McRae - Telfair County - 1.5 miles west of McRae on Hwy 134 (8th St). Facility is on Irwinton Avenue off 8th St., manned & staffed - no prisoners. Fort Gillem - South side of Atlanta - FEMA designated detention facility. Fort Stewart - Savannah area - FEMA designated detention facility
HAWAII
Halawa Heights area - Crematory facility located in hills above city. Area is marked as a state department of health laboratory. Barbers Point NAS - There are several military areas that could be equipped for detention / deportation. Honolulu - Detention transfer facility at the Honolulu airport similar in construction to the one in.Oklahoma (pentagon-shaped building where airplanes can taxi up to).
IDAHO
Minidoka/Jerome Counties - WWII Japanese-American internment facility possibly under renovation. Clearwater National Forest - Near Lolo Pass - Just miles from the Montana state line near Moose Creek, this unmanned facility is reported to have a nearby airfield. Wilderness areas - Possible location. No data.
ILLINOIS
Marseilles - Located on the Illinois River off Interstate 80 on Hwy 6. It is a relatively small facility with a cap of 1400 prisoners. Though it is small it is designed like prison facilities with barred windows, but the real smoking gun is the presence of military vehicles. Being located on the Illinois River it is possible that prisoners will be brought in by water as well as by road and air. This facility is approximately 75 miles west of Chicago. National Guard training area nearby. Scott AFB - Barbed wire prisoner enclosure reported to exist just off-base. More info needed, as another facility on-base is beieved to exist. Pekin - This Federal satellite prison camp is also on the Illinois River, just south of Peoria. It supplements the federal penitentiary in Marion, which is equipped to handle additional population outside on the grounds. Chanute AFB - Rantoul, near Champaign/Urbana - This closed base had WWII - era barracks that were condemned and torn down, but the medical facility was upgraded and additional fencing put up in the area. More info needed. Marion - Federal Penitentiary and satellite prison camp inside Crab Orchard Nat'l Wildlife Refuge. Manned, staffed, populated fully. Greenfield - Two federal correctional "satellite prison camps" serving Marion - populated as above. Shawnee National Forest - Pope County - This area has seen heavy traffic of foreign military equipment and troops via Illinois Central Railroad, which runs through the area. Suspected location is unknown, but may be close to Vienna and Shawnee correctional centers, located 6 mi. west of Dixon Springs. Savanna Army Depot - NW area of state on Mississippi River. Lincoln, Sheridan, Menard, Pontiac, Galesburg - State prison facilities equipped for major expansion and close or adjacent to highways & railroad tracks. Kankakee - Abandoned industrial area on west side of town (Rt.17 & Main) designated as FEMA detention site. Equipped with water tower, incinerator, a small train yard behind it and the rear of the facility is surrounded by barbed wire facing inwards.
INDIANA
Indianapolis / Marion County - Amtrak railcar repair facility (closed); controversial site of a major alleged detention / processing center. Although some sources state that this site is a "red herring", photographic and video evidence suggests otherwise. This large facility contains large 3-4 inch gas mains to large furnaces (crematoria??), helicopter landing pads, railheads for prisoners, Red/Blue/Green zones for classifying/processing incoming personnel, one-way turnstiles, barracks, towers, high fences with razor wire, etc. Personnel with government clearance who are friendly to the patriot movement took a guided tour of the facility to confirm this site. This site is located next to a closed refrigeration plant facility. Ft. Benjamin Harrison - Located in the northeast part of Indianapolis, this base has been decomissioned from "active" use but portions are still ideally converted to hold detainees. Helicopter landing areas still exist for prisoners to be brought in by air, land & rail. Crown Point - Across street from county jail, former hospital. One wing presently being used for county work-release program, 80% of facility still unused. Possible FEMA detention center or holding facility. Camp Atterbury - Facility is converted to hold prisoners and boasts two active compounds presently configured for minumum security detainees. Located just west of Interstate 65 near Edinburgh, south of Indianapolis. Terre Haute - Federal Correctional Institution, Satellite prison camp and death facility. Equipped with crematoria reported to have a capacity of 3,000 people a day. FEMA designated facility located here. Fort Wayne - This city located in Northeast Indiana has a FEMA designated detention facility, accessible by air, road and nearby rail. Kingsbury - This "closed" military base is adjacent to a state fish & wildlife preserve. Part of the base is converted to an industrial park, but the southern portion of this property is still used. It is bordered on the south by railroad, and is staffed with some foreign-speaking UN troops. A local police officer who was hunting and camping close to the base in the game preserve was accosted, roughed up, and warned by the English-speaking unit commander to stay away from the area. It was suggested to the officer that the welfare of his family would depend on his "silence". Located just southeast of LaPorte. Jasper-Pulaski Wildlife Area - Youth Corrections farm located here. Facility is "closed", but is still staffed and being "renovated". Total capacity unknown. Grissom AFB - This closed airbase still handles a lot of traffic, and has a "state-owned" prison compound on the southern part of the facility.
UNICOR
. Jefferson Proving Grounds - Southern Indiana - This facility was an active base with test firing occuring daily. Portions of the base have been opened to create an industrial park, but other areas are still highly restricted. A camp is believed to be located "downrange". Facility is equipped with an airfield and has a nearby rail line. Newport - Army Depot - VX nerve gas storage facility. Secret meetings were held here in 1998 regarding the addition of the Kankakee River watershed to the Heritage Rivers Initiative. Hammond - large enclosure identified in FEMA-designated city.
IOWA
No data available.
KANSAS
Leavenworth - US Marshal's Fed Holding Facility, US Penitentiary, Federal Prison Camp, McConnell Air Force Base. Federal death penalty facility. Concordia - WWII German POW camp used to exist at this location but there is no facility there at this time. Ft. Riley - Just north of Interstate 70, airport, near city of Manhattan. El Dorado - Federal prison converted into forced-labor camp, UNICOR industries. Topeka - 80 acres has been converted into a temporary holding camp.
KENTUCKY
Ashland - Federal prison camp in Eastern Kentucky near the Ohio River. Louisville - FEMA detention facility, located near restricted area US naval ordnance plant. Military airfield located at facility, which is on south side of city. Lexington - FEMA detention facility, National Guard base with adjacent airport facility. Manchester - Federal prison camp located inside Dan Boone National Forest. Ft. Knox - Detention center, possibly located near Salt River, in restricted area of base. Local patriots advise that black Special Forces & UN gray helicopters are occasionally seen in area. Land Between the Lakes - This area was declared a UN biosphere and is an ideal geographic location for detention facilities. Area is an isthmus extending out from Tennessee, between Lake Barkley on the east and Kentucky Lake on the west. Just scant miles from Fort Campbell in Tennessee.
LOUISIANA
Ft. Polk - This is a main base for UN troops & personnel, and a training center for the disarmament of America. Livingston - WWII German/Italian internment camp being renovated?; halfway between Baton Rouge and Hammond, several miles north of Interstate 12. Oakdale - Located on US route 165 about 50 miles south of Alexandria; two federal detention centers just southeast of Fort Polk.
MAINE
Houlton - WWII German internment camp in Northern Maine, off US Route 1.
MARYLAND, and DC
Ft. Meade - Halfway between the District of Criminals and Baltimore. Data needed. Ft. Detrick - Biological warfare center for the NWO, located in Frederick.
MASSACHUSETTS
Camp Edwards / Otis AFB - Cape Cod - This "inactive" base is being converted to hold many New Englander patriots. Capacity unknown. Ft. Devens - Active detention facility. More data needed.
MICHIGAN
Camp Grayling - Michigan Nat'l Guard base has several confirmed detention camps, classic setup with high fences, razor wire, etc. Guard towers are very well-built, sturdy. Multiple compounds within larger enclosures. Facility deep within forest area. Sawyer AFB - Upper Peninsula - south of Marquette - No data available. Bay City - Classic enclosure with guard towers, high fence, and close to shipping port on Saginaw Bay, which connects to Lake Huron. Could be a deportation point to overseas via St. Lawrence Seaway. Southwest - possibly Berrien County - FEMA detention center. Lansing - FEMA detention facility.
MINNESOTA
Duluth - Federal prison camp facility. Camp Ripley - new prison facility.
MISSISSIPPI
These sites are confirmed hoaxes. Hancock County - NASA test site De Soto National Forest. "These two supposed camps in Mississippi do not exist. Members of the Mississippi Militia have checked these out on more than one occasion beginning back when they first appeared on the Internet and throughout the Patriot Movement." - Commander D. Rayner, Mississippi Militia
MISSOURI
Richards-Gebaur AFB - located in Grandview, near K.C.MO. A very large internment facility has been built on this base, and all base personnel are restricted from coming near it. Ft. Leonard Wood - Situated in the middle of Mark Twain National Forest in Pulaski County. This site has been known for some UN training, also home to the US Army Urban Warfare Training school "Stem Village". Warsaw - Unconfirmed report of a large concentration camp facility.
MONTANA
Malmstrom AFB - UN aircraft groups stationed here, and possibly a detention facility.
NEBRASKA
Scottsbluff - WWII German POW camp (renovated?). Northwest, Northeast corners of state - FEMA detention facilities - more data needed. South Central part of state - Many old WWII sites - some may be renovated.
NEVADA
Elko - Ten miles south of town. Wells - Camp is located in the O'Niel basin area, 40 miles north of Wells, past Thousand Springs, west off Hwy 93 for 25 miles. Pershing County - Camp is located at I-80 mile marker 112, south side of the highway, about a mile back on the county road and then just off the road about 3/4mi. Winnemucca - Battle Mountain area - at the base of the mountains. Nellis Air Force Range - Northwest from Las Vegas on Route 95. Nellis AFB is just north of Las Vegas on Hwy 604. Stillwater Naval Air Station - east of Reno . No additional data.
NEW HAMPSHIRE / VERMONT
Northern New Hampshire - near Lake Francis. No additional data.
NEW JERSEY
Ft. Dix / McGuire AFB - Possible deportation point for detainees. Lots of pictures taken of detention compounds and posted on Internet, this camp is well-known. Facility is now complete and ready for occupancy.
NEW MEXICO
Ft. Bliss - This base actually straddles Texas state line. Just south of Alomogordo, Ft. Bliss has thousands of acres for people who refuse to go with the "New Order". Holloman AFB (Alomogordo)- Home of the German Luftwaffe in Amerika; major UN base. New facility being built on this base, according to recent visitors. Many former USAF buildings have been torn down by the busy and rapidly growing German military force located here. Fort Stanton - currently being used as a youth detention facility approximately 35 miles north of Ruidoso, New Mexico. Not a great deal of information concerning the Lordsburg location. White Sands Missile Range - Currently being used as a storage facility for United Nations vehicles and equipment. Observers have seen this material brought in on the Whitesands rail spur in Oro Grande New Mexico about thirty miles from the Texas, New Mexico Border.
NEW YORK
Ft. Drum - two compounds: Rex 84 detention camp and FEMA detention facility. Albany - FEMA detention facility. Otisville - Federal correctional facility, near Middletown. Buffalo - FEMA detention facility.
NORTH CAROLINA
Camp Lejeune / New River Marine Airfield - facility has renovated, occupied WWII detention compounds and "mock city" that closely resembles Anytown, USA. Fort Bragg - Special Warfare Training Center. Renovated WWII detention facility. Andrews - Federal experiment in putting a small town under siege. Began with the search/ hunt for survivalist Eric Rudolph. No persons were allowed in or out of town without federal permission and travel through town was highly restricted. Most residents compelled to stay in their homes. Unregistered Baptist pastor from Indiana visiting Andrews affirmed these facts.
NORTH DAKOTA
Minot AFB - Home of UN air group. More data needed on facility.
OHIO
Camp Perry - Site renovated; once used as a POW camp to house German and Italian prisoners of WWII. Some tar paper covered huts built for housing these prisoners are still standing. Recently, the construction of multiple 200-man barracks have replaced most of the huts. Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus - FEMA detention facilities. Data needed. Lima - FEMA detention facility. Another facility located in/near old stone quarry near Interstate 75. Railroad access to property, fences etc.
OKLAHOMA
Tinker AFB (OKC) - All base personnel are prohibited from going near civilian detention area, which is under constant guard. Will Rogers World Airport - FEMA's main processing center for west of the Mississippi. All personnel are kept out of the security zone. Federal prisoner transfer center located here (A pentagon-shaped building where airplanes can taxi up to). Photos have been taken and this site will try to post soon! El Reno - Renovated federal internment facility with CURRENT population of 12,000 on Route 66. McAlester - near Army Munitions Plant property - former WWII German / Italian POW camp designated for future use. Ft. Sill (Lawton) - Former WWII detention camps. More data still needed.
OREGON
Sheridan - Federal prison satellite camp northwest of Salem. Josephine County - WWII Japanese internment camp ready for renovation. Sheridan - FEMA detention center. Umatilla - New prison spotted.
PENNSYLVANIA
Allenwood - Federal prison camp located south of Williamsport on the Susquehanna River. It has a current inmate population of 300, and is identified by William Pabst as having a capacity in excess of 15,000 on 400 acres.
Indiantown Gap Military Reservation - located north of Harrisburg. Used for WWII POW camp and renovated by Jimmy Carter. Was used to hold Cubans during Mariel boat lift.
Camp Hill - State prison close to Army depot. Lots of room, located in Camp Hill, Pa. New Cumberland Army Depot - on the Susquehanna River, located off Interstate 83 and Interstate 76.
Schuylkill Haven - Federal prison camp, north of Reading.
SOUTH CAROLINA
Greenville - Unoccupied youth prison camp; total capacity unknown.
Charleston - Naval Reserve & Air Force base, restricted area on naval base.
SOUTH DAKOTA
Yankton - Federal prison camp
Black Hills Nat'l Forest - north of Edgemont, southwest part of state. WWII internment camp being renovated.
TENNESSEE
Ft. Campbell - Next to Land Between the Lakes; adjacent to airfield and US Alt. 41.
Millington - Federal prison camp next door to Memphis Naval Air Station.
Crossville - Site of WWII German / Italian prison camp is renovated; completed barracks and behind the camp in the woods is a training facility with high tight ropes and a rappelling deck.
Nashville - There are two buildings built on State property that are definitely built to hold prisoners. They are identical buildings - side by side on Old Briley Parkway. High barbed wire fence that curves inward.
TEXAS
Austin - Robert Mueller Municipal airport has detenion areas inside hangars.
Bastrop - Prison and military vehicle motor pool.
Eden - 1500 bed privately run federal center. Currently holds illegal aliens.
Ft. Hood (Killeen) - Newly built concentration camp, with towers, barbed wire etc., just like the one featured in the movie Amerika. Mock city for NWO shock- force training. Some footage of this area was used in "Waco: A New Revelation" Reese AFB (Lubbock) - FEMA designated detention facility.
Sheppard AFB - in Wichita Falls just south of Ft. Sill, OK. FEMA designated detention facility.
North Dallas - near Carrolton - water treatment plant, close to interstate and railroad.
Mexia - East of Waco 33mi.; WWII German facility may be renovated.
Amarillo - FEMA designated detention facility
Ft. Bliss (El Paso) - Extensive renovation of buildings and from what patriots have been able to see, many of these buildings that are being renovated are being surrounded by razor wire.
Beaumont / Port Arthur area - hundreds of acres of federal camps already built on large-scale detention camp design, complete with the double rows of chain link fencing with razor type concertina wire on top of each row. Some (but not all) of these facilities are currently being used for low-risk state prisoners who require a minimum of supervision.
Ft. Worth - Federal prison under construction on the site of Carswell AFB.
UTAH
Millard County - Central Utah - WWII Japanese camp. (Renovated?)
Ft. Douglas - This "inactive" military reservation has a renovated WWII concentration camp.
Migratory Bird Refuge - West of Brigham City - contains a WWII internment camp that was built before the game preserve was established.
Cedar City - east of city - no data available. Wendover - WWII internment camp may be renovated.
Skull Valley - southwestern Camp William property - east of the old bombing range. Camp was accidentally discovered by a man and his son who were rabbit hunting; they were discovered and apprehended. SW of Tooele.
VIRGINIA
Ft. A.P. Hill (Fredericksburg) - Rex 84 / FEMA facility. Estimated capacity 45,000.
Petersburg - Federal satellite prison camp, south of Richmond.
WEST VIRGINIA
Beckley - Alderson - Lewisburg - Former WWII detention camps that are now converted into active federal prison complexes capable of holding several times their current populations. Alderson is presently a women's federal reformatory.
Morgantown - Federal prison camp located in northern WV; just north of Kingwood.
Mill Creek - FEMA detention facility.
Kingwood - Newly built detention camp at Camp Dawson Army Reservation. More data needed on Camp Dawson.
WASHINGTON
Seattle/Tacoma - SeaTac Airport: fully operational federal transfer center
Okanogan County - Borders Canada and is a site for a massive concentration camp capable of holding hundreds of thousands of people for slave labor. This is probably one of the locations that will be used to hold hard core patriots who will be held captive for the rest of their lives.
Sand Point Naval Station - Seattle - FEMA detention center used actively during the 1999 WTO protests to classify prisoners.
Ft. Lewis / McChord AFB - near Tacoma - This is one of several sites that may be used to ship prisoners overseas for slave labor.
WISCONSIN
Ft. McCoy - Rex 84 facility with several complete interment compounds.
Oxford - Central part of state - Federal prison & staellite camp and FEMA detention facility.
WYOMING
Heart Mountain - Park County N. of Cody - WWII Japanese interment camp ready for renovation.
Laramie - FEMA detention facility
Southwest - near Lyman - FEMA detention facility
East Yellowstone - Manned internment facility - Investigating patriots were apprehended by European soldiers speaking in an unknown language. Federal government assumed custody of the persons and arranged their release.
OTHER LOCATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES
There are many other locations not listed above that are worthy of consideration as a possible detention camp site, but due to space limitations and the time needed to verify, could not be included here. Virtually all military reservations, posts, bases, stations, & depots can be considered highly suspect (because it is "federal" land). Also fitting this category are "Regional Airports" and "International Airports" which also fall under federal jurisdiction and have limited-access areas. Mental hospitals, closed hospitals & nursing homes, closed military bases, wildlife refuges, state prisons, toxic waste dumps, hotels and other areas all have varying degrees of potential for being a detention camp area. The likelihood of a site being suspect increases with transportation access to the site, including airports/airstrips, railheads, navigable waterways & ports, interstate and US highways. Some facilities are "disguised" as industrial or commercial properties, camouflaged or even wholly contained inside large buildings (Indianapolis) or factories. Many inner-city buildings left vacant during the de-industrialization of America have been quietly acquired and held, sometimes retrofitted for their new uses.
CANADA
Our Canadian friends tell us that virtually all Canadian military bases, especially those north of the 50th Parallel, are all set up with concentration camps. Not even half of these can be listed, but here are a few sites with the massive land space to handle any population:
Suffield CFB - just north of Medicine Hat, less than 60 miles from the USA.
Primrose Lake Air Range - 70 miles northeast of Edmonton.
Wainwright CFB - halfway between Medicine Hat and Primrose Lake.
Ft. Nelson - Northernmost point on the BC Railway line.
Ft. McPherson - Very cold territory ~ NW Territories. Ft. Providence - Located on Great Slave Lake. Halifax - Nova Scotia. Dept. of National Defense reserve.... And others.
OVERSEAS LOCATIONS
Guayanabo, Puerto Rico - Federal prison camp facility. Capacity unknown.
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba - US Marine Corps Base - Presently home to 30,000 Mariel Cubans and 40,000 Albanians. Total capacity unknown.
This is a gooder too
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; and that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle.
The Project for the New American Century intends, through issue briefs, research papers, advocacy journalism, conferences, and seminars, to explain what American world leadership entails. It will also strive to rally support for a vigorous and principled policy of American international involvement and to stimulate useful public debate on foreign and defense policy and America's role in the world.
(This one makes me sick, a little bit)
Another linkhttp://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/09/26/republican-torture-bill-expansive-proof-bugger-constitution
This one makes me a bit sick too.
To get right to the point, the Washington Post reports this morning that after last week’s Republican photo-op fake “compromise” on legislation promoting torture, the Bush Administration has just gone right ahead and trashed even that tepid deal.
George W. Bush’s pro-torture legislation, submitted as H.R. 6166 by Republican House members Duncan Hunter (progressive score 7%) and James Sensenbrenner (progressive score 7%), is now available to read. Go read it. What you’ll read is chilling.
Who is an “Unlawful Enemy Combatant”?
(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant’ means–
`(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or
`(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.
a) point (ii) is legal cover for the Bush administration — whatever it might have done that is illegal, the legislation attempts to make retroactively legal now.
b) remember when George W. Bush said “you are either with us or against us?” What he meant is embodied in point (i) — if you are a person who sent money to Hamas charities, you can be an unlawful enemy combatant. If you somehow helped out an ethnic group that turned out to have a militant wing, you can be an unlawful enemy combatant. Since “purpose” is a non-material property that cannot be directly observed, if the government says you did something helpful to someone they say is a terrorist, and they say you did it on purpose, you can be an unlawful enemy combatant.
What can they do to an “enemy combatant”? Such a person used to be sent to trial by jury, as the United States Constitution provides for all persons living in the United States. Not now. Now,
(b) Authority for Military Commissions Under This Chapter- The President is authorized to establish military commissions under this chapter for offenses triable by military commission as provided in this chapter.
Under what conditions? Those provided by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, even though the “enemy combatants” to be tried aren’t military? No, not even that:
`(d) Inapplicability of Certain Provisions- (1) The following provisions of this title shall not apply to trial by military commission under this chapter:
`(A) Section 810 (article 10 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), relating to speedy trial, including any rule of courts-martial relating to speedy trial.
`(B) Sections 831(a), (b), and (d) (articles 31(a), (b), and (d) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), relating to compulsory self-incrimination.
`(C) Section 832 (article 32 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), relating to pretrial investigation.
What’s that gobbledygook mean? Section 810, article 10 reads in part:
When any person subject to this chapter is placed in arrest or confinement prior to trial, immediate steps shall be taken to inform him of the specific wrong of which he is accused and to try him or to dismiss the charges and release him.
Section 831 (a)(b) and (d) reads:
831 ART. 31. COMPULSORY SELF-INCRIMINATION PROHIBITED
(a) No person subject to this chapter may compel any person to incriminate himself or to answer any questions the answer to which may tend to incriminate him.
(b) No person subject to this chapter may interrogate, or request any statement from an accused or a person suspected of an offense without first informing him of the nature of the accusation and advising him that he does not have to make any statement regarding the offense of which he is accused or suspected and that any statement made by him may be used as evidence against him in a trial by court-martial.
…
(d) No statement obtained from any person in violation of this article, or through the use of coercion, unlawful influence, or unlawful inducement may be received in evidence against him in a trial by court-martial.
Section 832 reads:
(a) No charge or specification may be referred to a general court-martial for trial until a through and impartial investigation of all the matters set forth therein has been made. This investigation shall include inquiry as to the truth of the matter set forth in the charges, consideration of the form of charges, and recommendation as to the disposition which should be made of the case in the interest of justice and discipline.
(b) The accused shall be advised of the charges against him and of his right to be represented at that investigation as provided in section 838 of this title (article 38) and in regulations prescribed under that section. At that investigation full opportunity shall be given to the accused to cross-examine witnesses against him if they are available and to present anything he may desire in his own behalf, either in defense or mitigation, and the investigation officer shall examine available witnesses requested by the accused. If the charges are forwarded after the investigation, they shall be accompanied by a statement of the substance of the testimony taken on both sides and a copy thereof shall be given to the accused.
(c) If an investigation of the subject matter of an offense has been conducted before the accused is charged with the offense, and if the accused was present at the investigation and afforded the opportunities for representation, cross-examination, and presentation prescribed in subsection (b), no further investigation of that charge is necessary under this article unless it is demanded by the accused after he is informed of the charge. A demand for further investigation entitles the accused to recall witnesses for further cross-examination and to offer any new evidence in his own behalf.
(d) The requirements of this article are binding on all persons administering this chapter but failure to follow them does not constitute judicial error.
Why don’t the Republicans discuss the content of these sections in the bill? Because they don’t want you to know that the removal of these sections takes away constitutional protections afforded every individual in the United States, citizen or not. Amendments V and VI to the United States Constitution read:
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
What else is in this bill? Well, toss the Geneva Conventions:
(g) Geneva Conventions Not Establishing Source of Rights- No alien unlawful enemy combatant subject to trial by military commission under this chapter may invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights.
Do Americans ever get to see the proceedings of the tribunal, so we may review the process and decide whether it is fair?
(c) Transcript; Record- The transcript of a military commission under this chapter shall be under the control of the convening authority of the commission, who shall also be responsible for preparing the record of the proceedings.
Do Americans even get a thorough, unvarnished summary?
`(a) Annual Report Required- Not later than December 31 each year, the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the Committees on Armed Services of the Senate and the House of Representatives a report on any trials conducted by military commissions under this chapter during such year.
`(b) Form- Each report under this section shall be submitted in unclassified form, but may include a classified annex.
And who gets to determine what person qualifies as an “enemy combatant,” is subject to military tribunal, has their constitutional rights stripped from them, and no longer has any refuge in the Geneva Conventions?
(c) Determination of Unlawful Enemy Combatant Status Dispositive- A finding, whether before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense that a person is an unlawful enemy combatant is dispositive for purposes of jurisdiction for trial by military commission under this chapter.
Is there a provision in the bill for review of this decision? No.
That’s right. A committee drawn up by George W. Bush or Donald Rumsfeld gets to decide whether you are an “enemy combatant.” And if they decide you are, you are. And if they so decide, may whatever deity you believe in have mercy on your soul, because the USA will show no such mercy.
I have more, but Im not going to post yet.
A page full of Link to all kinds of goodies like this.
Post by: Osmose on November 08, 2006, 12:32:05 AM
Kinda reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy flash movie that was total crap.
Post by: Almeidaboo on November 08, 2006, 01:28:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Grandy
quote: Originally posted by Almeidaboo
I`m sure that I`m 100% different from politicians. Otherwise, please, kill me, cause I`m a real plague.
*cocks shotgun*
What you prefer, head or heart?
Last I reccal, politician also use the same thing you're using: Blaming others.
Of 'course, the majority elected them, maybe even you voted on them. But that doesn't take all the obligations from your back.
That's like throwing garbage on the street, and if I policeman tried to stop you you'd say "But hey! It's not my fault the streets are dirty! The politician should invest more money on keeping the city clean. What are we paying them for? If my garbage is on the street, it's because they haven't done anything about it."
That`s why I keep polically correct. This last election I led a campaign pro null voting. My real intention was to make people to insurge agains the whole process and break the urns, but no one would adhere to that. So, instead, I did my best to make people show that they were not happy with absolutely no politicians. These elections were garbage, since anyone we put there will rob the same.
I do blame others, for the simple reason that others are the one to blame. I don`t steal, I don`t kill, and I do not throw garbage on the floor. I just got my driving license, and I didn`t buy it, even though in my city it is a real mafia. I was not corrupted when a politician offered me a scholarship if I got him 100 votes. I shouted "****ing THIEF" at Waldemar Costa Neto`s face and ran when I saw him walking on the street.
I have billions of defects, like not having much patience, being competitive all the time and agressive towards malfunctioning stuff (I broke my Hot shot golf CD with a stomp when it didn`t work...). I have prejudice against drug users. But this I tell you: I`m 100% different from politicians, stating for I do not betray the trust of people who depend on me.
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on November 08, 2006, 01:30:20 AM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 08, 2006, 01:43:28 AM
Take it how you want it.
Thats the beauty of information. You can make up your own mind to the credibility.
Either way.....Ive physically seen the CFB Wainwright camp with my own eyes. As I posted earlier....friends and I used to drive up those roads to smoke doobies, when I ran my Shop out of Wainwright.
You Can believe or disbelieve that to your lesiure.
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 08, 2006, 02:36:27 AM
Post by: Rikushinblade on November 08, 2006, 02:37:29 AM
Post by: charaman on November 08, 2006, 03:10:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Rikushinblade
Saddam deserves to die...that it..you all can't do a thing to change that matter..your voices won't be heard..if you are against his death take it to court..other than that...USA is still going to police the world
So you say stop talkiing because our opinions won't change anything? Heh, that's pretty pessimistic of you. What's the point of any discussion then? Can't we just speak for speech's sake?
**** the US government, **** the death penalty, **** Iraq, **** war, **** murder, but most of all, **** Saddam.
Post by: Razor on November 08, 2006, 06:04:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by charaman
**** the US government, **** the death penalty, **** Iraq, **** war, **** murder, but most of all, **** Saddam.
And **** Superman. He sucks, Batman is better.
So plight, was that wall big enough or what?
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 08, 2006, 06:10:58 AM
You mean....what?
I dont hide behind walls to smoke pot. I do it openly.
Its just nice to go for a drive.
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on November 08, 2006, 06:41:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Razor
quote: Originally posted by charaman
**** the US government, **** the death penalty, **** Iraq, **** war, **** murder, but most of all, **** Saddam.
And **** Superman. He sucks, Batman is better.
So plight, was that wall big enough or what?
CAN I GET AN AMEN!?
Post by: Razor on November 08, 2006, 07:24:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
Wall? what?
You mean....what?
I dont hide behind walls to smoke pot. I do it openly.
Its just nice to go for a drive.
Text wall, my friend. Text wall. You know, that post that is singly handedly the biggest post on Charas ever?
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 08, 2006, 07:31:08 AM
At least it was informative i guess.
Sorry bout that.
Is it seriously the biggest post ever?
Do I get a cookie for that? Or at least a "plight U iz a n00b-troll"?
Post by: Weregnome on November 08, 2006, 10:39:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by ZeroKirbyX
quote: Originally posted by Razor
quote: Originally posted by charaman
**** the US government, **** the death penalty, **** Iraq, **** war, **** murder, but most of all, **** Saddam.
And **** Superman. He sucks, Batman is better.
So plight, was that wall big enough or what?
CAN I GET AN AMEN!?
AMEN BROTHER! LET US REJOICE IN KAPOWS AND BIFFS!
Post by: Osmose on November 08, 2006, 10:50:37 AM
I don't know quite how it is in other countries, but the opinion that all American politicians turn on their constituants is false. It is easy to assume that politicians lie and cheat, but the system of Democracy keeps them in line. For every one promise not kept that you hear about, there are many more that were kept. Politicians, at least in America, must do a lot of what they say they will so that they may be reelected.
Post by: Razor on November 08, 2006, 10:59:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
lol. Dont I look silly.
At least it was informative i guess.
Sorry bout that.
Is it seriously the biggest post ever?
Do I get a cookie for that? Or at least a "plight U iz a n00b-troll"?
No wait, I did the biggest post ever. It was back when The Big Emerald had turned into an RPG, so I made a new thread and copied EVERY RP post from the first thread.
It was so big, I hit the seemingly fictious letter-limit.
Post by: Weregnome on November 08, 2006, 11:30:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Razor
quote: Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
lol. Dont I look silly.
At least it was informative i guess.
Sorry bout that.
Is it seriously the biggest post ever?
Do I get a cookie for that? Or at least a "plight U iz a n00b-troll"?
No wait, I did the biggest post ever. It was back when The Big Emerald had turned into an RPG, so I made a new thread and copied EVERY RP post from the first thread.
It was so big, I hit the seemingly fictious letter-limit.
he is correct. plight failed.
Post by: Almeidaboo on November 08, 2006, 04:12:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Razor
And **** Superman. He sucks, Batman is better.
Thank you!
Post by: Grandy on November 08, 2006, 04:25:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Almeidaboo
quote: Originally posted by Grandy
quote: Originally posted by Almeidaboo
I`m sure that I`m 100% different from politicians. Otherwise, please, kill me, cause I`m a real plague.
*cocks shotgun*
What you prefer, head or heart?
Last I reccal, politician also use the same thing you're using: Blaming others.
Of 'course, the majority elected them, maybe even you voted on them. But that doesn't take all the obligations from your back.
That's like throwing garbage on the street, and if I policeman tried to stop you you'd say "But hey! It's not my fault the streets are dirty! The politician should invest more money on keeping the city clean. What are we paying them for? If my garbage is on the street, it's because they haven't done anything about it."
That`s why I keep polically correct. This last election I led a campaign pro null voting. My real intention was to make people to insurge agains the whole process and break the urns, but no one would adhere to that. So, instead, I did my best to make people show that they were not happy with absolutely no politicians. These elections were garbage, since anyone we put there will rob the same.
I do blame others, for the simple reason that others are the one to blame. I don`t steal, I don`t kill, and I do not throw garbage on the floor. I just got my driving license, and I didn`t buy it, even though in my city it is a real mafia. I was not corrupted when a politician offered me a scholarship if I got him 100 votes. I shouted "******* THIEF" at Waldemar Costa Neto`s face and ran when I saw him walking on the street.
I have billions of defects, like not having much patience, being competitive all the time and agressive towards malfunctioning stuff (I broke my Hot shot golf CD with a stomp when it didn`t work...). I have prejudice against drug users. But this I tell you: I`m 100% different from politicians, stating for I do not betray the trust of people who depend on me.
I won't argument more 'cause I know this won't lead anywhere, but I still have some stuff I'd love to say. :dry:
Oh, and Batman is emo.
No, really, he is. Nothing against him, just... he's so emo...
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 08, 2006, 05:42:22 PM
At leat atman was part ninja.
ninja are allowed to be emo.
Post by: Darkfox on November 08, 2006, 07:41:55 PM
Quote
ninja are allowed to be emo.
I thought they were supposed to be emotionless during duty. <_< And grouchy in the morning when they don't get their morning breakfast in which they might kill their fellow ninja WHO KEEPS HOLDING UP THE FREAKING LINE TO GET SOMTHING TO EAT! Yojira Fatsu had it coming.
So maybe the correct answer is NINJA ARE ANGRY PEOPLE!
Post by: Cosmos on November 08, 2006, 08:52:51 PM
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 08, 2006, 09:08:21 PM
Post by: Osmose on November 08, 2006, 11:08:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Razor
quote: Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
lol. Dont I look silly.
At least it was informative i guess.
Sorry bout that.
Is it seriously the biggest post ever?
Do I get a cookie for that? Or at least a "plight U iz a n00b-troll"?
No wait, I did the biggest post ever. It was back when The Big Emerald had turned into an RPG, so I made a new thread and copied EVERY RP post from the first thread.
It was so big, I hit the seemingly fictious letter-limit.
Thank you for repeating what I said.
Post by: charaman on November 08, 2006, 11:49:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
Democrats are running congress now.. um yay or no?
an extreme yay.
Post by: Revolution911 on November 09, 2006, 12:25:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by charaman:flower: :flower:
quote: Originally posted by Midnight
Democrats are running congress now.. um yay or no?
an extreme yay.
Post by: MrMister on November 09, 2006, 12:44:24 AM
Especially since I'm Canadian.
Post by: Cosmos on November 09, 2006, 12:59:32 AM
Post by: ZeroKirbyX on November 09, 2006, 01:01:23 AM
Post by: drenrin2120 on November 09, 2006, 02:52:55 AM
Post by: Razor on November 09, 2006, 05:16:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Osmose
Thank you for repeating what I said.
How should I know what "Rendarsa" is?
Post by: Osmose on November 09, 2006, 05:26:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Razor
quote: Originally posted by Osmose
Thank you for repeating what I said.
How should I know what "Rendarsa" is?
Rendarsa, Rendersa, whatever, YOU WERE FREAKING THERE. :P
Post by: Razor on November 09, 2006, 07:31:01 AM
Post by: charaman on November 09, 2006, 11:28:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by drenrin2120
Democrats... Republicans... what's the difference again? Not being sarcastic, I'm just not a politically involved kinda guy.
Republicans care about business, Democrats about the people.
(Yeah, I'm just setting myself up for somebody to attack me. I really don't care though)
Post by: Cosmos on November 09, 2006, 11:37:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by drenrin2120
Democrats... Republicans... what's the difference again? Not being sarcastic, I'm just not a politically involved kinda guy.
Republicans are for those rich folks who are trying to make life harder on the norm/poorer folk. While Democrats is for the normal people, trying to make life harder on the rich folks. XD
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 09, 2006, 03:51:01 PM
Weve got all sorts of shades of grey to work with up north, here.
Im listening to the radio about the "Economic ramifications of the political tide-shift" in America.
Im going to agree with Midnight...All of North Americas Nations (USA CAnada And Mexico) politics diectly effect the others in some way or another. Theres plans underway to try and integrate north american monetary systems...They have been talking about it on the radio here for a bit. Not to mention, Ive been reading on the subject of the "Amero" (google that) and an Integrated North American Economy...and it is some stuff that deserves more exposure. The flow of info on this, to the public, is a tiny trickle right now...as the powers that be are very much trying to slowly introduce the subject to the people. (Personally I think the Idea is BS, but thats for you to decide...thats also where my 'manifest destiny' comment to glitch came from, that was so eloquently reffered to as a 'cold-war-gem).
Its an interesting state of affairs this week, in North America.
(Especially here,with Canadas Conservative Government slipping into suck-town at such a break-neck-fast rate, and observing how it will be affected by the democrats). It could go really good, or really bad.
I find it Ironic to see Rumsfeld step down, with a great cheer from the worlds public, only to be replaced by Gates. I dont think alot of peole are remembering the last president Gates Worked For....He was also named George Bush.
Post by: Glitch on November 09, 2006, 04:55:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
quote: Originally posted by drenrin2120
Democrats... Republicans... what's the difference again? Not being sarcastic, I'm just not a politically involved kinda guy.
Republicans are for those rich folks who are trying to make life harder on the norm/poorer folk. While Democrats is for the normal people, trying to make life harder on the rich folks. XD
I am sick of hearing people say that, it's crap. Do you really think that all republicans are rich? I can tell you already that my family is poor. And for that matter, a large amount of republicans are poor hillbillys down south. Not to mention that the richest states in the country are DEMOCRATIC (I'm looking at you New England). You can't generalize it like that.
The simplest way to generalize between the two, would be Democratic believes in a more liberal and active Federal Government. While Republicans believe in a more conservative less active federal government, and more power to the state governments.
Post by: plightofthepureblood on November 09, 2006, 05:07:22 PM
Post by: charaman on November 10, 2006, 02:53:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by plightofthepureblood
I hope none of the americans take this wrong, but im pretty friggin' glad to live in a country where more than two major political parties are seriously considered when it comes time to vote.
As an American, I consider you Canadians lucky. We down here basically have a reactionary party and a centrist party.
All of American politics is shifted to the right and it skews the average American's world perspective.
Post by: Weregnome on November 10, 2006, 03:22:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Osmose
quote: Originally posted by Razor
quote: Originally posted by Osmose
Thank you for repeating what I said.
How should I know what "Rendarsa" is?
Rendarsa, Rendersa, whatever, YOU WERE FREAKING THERE. :P
Redersae was its name.