Charas-Project
Off-Topic => All of all! => Topic started by: shinotebasiiackh on September 11, 2008, 05:44:55 AM
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It's September the 11th, which, I think, is a day that needs no further introduction
A day when every American remembers both where he or she was, what they were doing, and the feelings that attacked us, the moment we heard what had happened.
A heartfelt silence to all of those who lost loved ones on that day, and just as much, those who share the feelings of loss that our country has suffered as a whole, since this tragic day.
God bless America.
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Yeah, never forget and all that patriotic hoo-hah.
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I'll be honest. I was too young to understand exactly what was going on. More or less, other than an 'oh wow' and the occasional "OMFG TOWEL-HEADS" from my class-mates that day was pretty normal. :\
I mean, sure I feel bad that it happened at all, but let's be honest, there's a difference between remembering a tragedy and celebrating having one more excuse to blow up the "DIRTY, UN-MURKAN TOWEL HEADS".
If you don't think or speak like that, you have no reason to be offended.
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Yeah Dom, they do. You pretty much just said that we remember 9/11 so we can go shoot people.
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That's not quite how I intended it, but I guess I see what you mean.
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In my defense, I was about six. I didn't even know what the hell was going on. Pardon me for, at that age, not to really get what had even happened.
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i'm not sure how old i was, but I was in kentucky when it happened, Probably about age 5-7
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I'm sorry, but what is more tragic with people getting kileld by an airplane rather than a tsunami? I'm just wondering, 'cuz soem years back in december there was a tsunami in Thailand, Thailand is also the most common holiday travelin-place for us Swedes and many families died just in one day.
And yet, we didn't have a minute of silence for them to honor their death.
But did you know what? On 9/11, we had it in the papers and teve, I will be disrespectful here, I'm sorry for everyone who lost someone. But I don't care if some americans died when a tower collapsed. Why did we, all the schools and jobs need to keep a silence minutre for you?
It makes no sense, about the same ammount of Swedes, or even more. Was killed in the tsunami, perhaps 13 was killed when they were tourists in Manhattan. And not to talk about the thailand-ish people that were killed. Do you think that 9/11 had more destruction than Thailand during the tsunami? No, certainly not.
And yet, they still remind us of 9/11 just because of the terrorists, and that's all. It's not about honoring the dead for the papers and the people in control, it's just to remind us of the fact that one day, in like: many years. There was one(1) terrorist attack that killed some people.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't even have written any of this, but telling someone to be ashamed of themself for not caring too much about a tower collapsing just isn't right.
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I'm sorry, but what is more tragic with people getting kileld by an airplane rather than a tsunami? I'm just wondering, 'cuz soem years back in december there was a tsunami in Thailand, Thailand is also the most common holiday travelin-place for us Swedes and many families died just in one day.
And yet, we didn't have a minute of silence for them to honor their death.
But did you know what? On 9/11, we had it in the papers and teve, I will be disrespectful here, I'm sorry for everyone who lost someone. But I don't care if some americans died when a tower collapsed. Why did we, all the schools and jobs need to keep a silence minutre for you?
It makes no sense, about the same ammount of Swedes, or even more. Was killed in the tsunami, perhaps 13 was killed when they were tourists in Manhattan. And not to talk about the thailand-ish people that were killed. Do you think that 9/11 had more destruction than Thailand during the tsunami? No, certainly not.
And yet, they still remind us of 9/11 just because of the terrorists, and that's all. It's not about honoring the dead for the papers and the people in control, it's just to remind us of the fact that one day, in like: many years. There was one(1) terrorist attack that killed some people.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't even have written any of this, but telling someone to be ashamed of themself for not caring too much about a tower collapsing just isn't right.
Once again, Fredrik has made me gay.
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The tsunami wasn't done by man, the falling of the towers was. People don't have moments of silence for Hurricane Katrina either.
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edit: oh, you're a swede. hahaha, well that's cute, I thought you were someone I should take seriously for a second, sorry about that.
I'll remind you that I'm half German, half Austrian, so I guess you don't need to worry too much about me either. After all, you've come to expect this kind of thing from us Nazis, right?
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I went to a school close to an American base. I'll just be leaving this topic be for now, though. I don't have much respect left for you after that whole comment about not having to take Fredrik seriously because he's Swedish, so I doubt I'd be able to take you seriously if this went any further, any way.
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So who's gunna be the cock to try and pin 9/11 as a conspiracy.
I know one of you are thinking about it. DO IT.
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I'm sorry, but on a topic like this, I'm not affected. It's one of the few things that does not affect me in any way, shape, or form. I'm not saying it's not something of a great calibur, I'm just saying I'm not affected, It's not a great calibur to me. I had learned around the time it happened that people will kill others to benefit themselves. I had already sewn it into my brain at that time and it's still there now. I just can't see it as 'suprizing' as many thought as it was.
There is a reason we haven't achieved World Peace yet.
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See, I hate topics like this. If you want to hold your head in sorrow over the events that happened here, you could do that at your job/school/where ever, but I wouldn't expect someone to do it in an international area such as a forum. I'd say that maybe 50% of the active members here are American?
I know this forum is a bunch of lame "People should die cuzs theys be ruiningz teh earthzors" and stuff, and then there are a bunch of "any death, no matter how it occured, is terrible" 's out there.... but come on. This happened seven years ago, I'm sure that the people who've lost family have moved on... and so should we who it didn't directly effect.
If the events of 9/11 did in fact effect someone here in a way other than by making them wait longer at the airpoint, sorry for my insensitivity towards your loss.
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See, I hate topics like this. If you want to hold your head in sorrow over the events that happened here, you could do that at your job/school/where ever, but I wouldn't expect someone to do it in an international area such as a forum. I'd say that maybe 50% of the active members here are American?
I know this forum is a bunch of lame "People should die cuzs theys be ruiningz teh earthzors" and stuff, and then there are a bunch of "any death, no matter how it occured, is terrible" 's out there.... but come on. This happened seven years ago, I'm sure that the people who've lost family have moved on... and so should we who it didn't directly effect.
If the events of 9/11 did in fact effect someone here in a way other than by making them wait longer at the airpoint, sorry for my insensitivity towards your loss.
You don't know how much my respect for you has just skyrocketed.
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If you think we went to war in the "middle east" because of 9/11 you should really educate yourself on current events.
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I'm going to step out here and risk being the idiot tea-swilling Brit who doesn't understand that America is, like, the world.
While I must take the viewpoint that any death is a tragedy, 9/11 has become hugely overblown. If it were a simple paying of respects, it might mean something to me, but it's just huge now. For one, there have been countless other tragedies and terrorist attacks in which many people have died, and they're usually forgotten. No loss of life should be more important or more long-remembered than any other.
Secondly, it's as much about America standing together against the people who oppose it than about the loss of life. As long as it's remembered as a massive event there will always be that underlying resentment for the people who hijacked the planes, and that just fuels the war more. Afghan citizens are being bombed and shot by Allied troops all the time. We don't pay our respects to them, because they're the damn towelheads and some people from their country killed some US folks.
People die. It might be a terrorist attack, it might be a work accident, it might be a heart attack, it might be old age. But if you're going to remember it far longer than you ought to, at least don't pin it on patriotism.
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Just for future reference: 19 citizens from Saudi Arabia, NOT Iraq and NOT Afghanistan, hijacked the planes during the 9/11 events. THERE SHOULD BE NO LINK BETWEEN THE BATTLES OCCURING IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND SEPTEMBER 11th 2001.
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Well, I wasn't gonna say anything, but...I'm with Prpl_Mage here.
I'll TRY to be brief.
The 9/11 episode wasn't half as tragic as the Thailand tsunami. Why? Because the Tsunami was not the victims' fault. 9/11 had a reason, I'm not gonna get into it cause I don't really care either.
But, "as things are right now in the world", big comotion about something that was clearly coming, caused by a ideology that proved profitable, is made a big deal of, bigger than other countries tragedies. This happens and it's a "big offense and attack to liberty and freedom". Armenian genocide means nothing.
No nukes have been found in Iraq till now.
EDIT: Shino, we much as we are all friends here, you shouldn't be afraid or concerned about showing your true feelings strongly. I say you discuss, speak your mind, put YOUR version on the table and get it off yourself. It's not like people will keep hard feelings, it's a international forum, but it's free right? Plus, if people DO keep hard feelings, what's the deal? Suposedly, we're not capable of understanding other peoples POV, because of a simple reference issue.
I spoke my mind, as I see the facts from outside. We got our tragedies here too, but people see Brasil as a big big jungle. I mean, remember Blanka? In Twisted Metal II, the Amazonia scenario had volcanos.
9/11 will happen again.
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Quick, probably offensive question: would it be as important if those 3000 odd people were killed over 7 years than all at once?
Because if you're going to honour the dead, I don't think you should omit all those dudes killed in the war(s?).
Because the Tsunami was not the victims' fault.
OH NO YOU DIDN'T
It wasn't just Americans in those towers, and I highly doubt most of them "had it coming".
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OH NO YOU DIDN'T
It wasn't just Americans in those towers, and I highly doubt most of them "had it coming".
Point is: the grief is not for "the people in there", but for the Americans that were there. There could be people from Afeghanistan, or Iraq or Oz working there, but they wqere not the "offended ones". Get my point?
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Did you just group my country with Afghanistan and Iraq
I kiiiiid.
But I'm sure to say EVERY AMERICAN ONLY CARES ABOUT THE AMERICANS WHO DIED is at the least a bit offensive.
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I'm sorry, Shino, but I kind of feel obligated to side with Meiscool and the rest. What happened on 9/11 was a terrible thing, everyone can agree on that. But to say it was worse than the death of those from natural causes is just harsh and said more out of rage for America being attacked than actual logic. If you want to crunch numbers, let's crunch numbers.
9/11 Death toll: 2,752
War in Iraq Death Toll: 4155 (this is only Americans)
War in Afghanistan Death Toll: 513 (US troops) 3,485 (Afghan Civilians) 8,587 (Afghan Troops)
Thailand Tsunami Death toll: 114,573 (confirmed deaths) Another some 100,000 missing
9/11 was tragic, but a death is a death. Whether natural or not, and technically those who died in the Tsunami did not expect to die, just as the people in the World Trade Centers did not expect to die. So, if you really want to say the people on 9/11 should be remembered simply because the people in those buildings were meant to die, I find hard to understand why you don't think even other victims of the so-called "result" of 9/11 should be remembered. The death toll from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars is many times greater than that of 9/11. And in saying, I include not the death "insurgents". I include US Soldiers, reporters, Iraq and Afghan civilians, men, children, women.
And you wonder why the world hates us. Because of gun-totin', believe anything Uncle Same pulls out of his ***, rednecks like you.
You wanted someone to bring up the 9/11 conspiracy, Rev? Well, I will. Do I believe that the American government attacked its own citizens? No, not necessarily. Do I find reason to be suspicious? Yes. The fact that I myself, and almost certainly all of you, can not say for certain what happened on 9/11 and who did or why, scares me. That doubt in the back of heads should not be simply ignored, but honestly, what can we do?
What it comes down to, is the majority of Americans are ****ing dumb. We elected a big oil man twice and fought a war in a country that had no connection to us or 9/11. Or you could choose to believe in the Zeitgeist story, it's all the same really. We got screwed, and it makes me really pissed when I see people pumpin' their fists for war and ready to kill some dirty sand-niggers.
I don't have answers, I won't pretend to. I have just as many questions as any of you. That's really all, I guess. Sorry for the wall o' text. And sorry for calling you a redneck, Shino.
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Will you guys stop comparing the Tsunami to 9/11?
Yes, in effect, the Tsunami did more damage. Yes, it killed more, yes it will cost more money to repair the homes, and yes it laid waste to a larger area.
You're all missing the point that the Tsunami WASN'T a direct attack on anyone. 9/11 DIDN'T have to happen. It was caused by MAN. The Tsunami event was caused by NATURE, something that we CAN'T CONTROL.
Right now, when put bluntly and very simply, you are comparing Murder to Natural Selection.
And shino.... your post before Dren's is horrible. Saying that an entire country should be wasted because of the actions of a few is totally ignorant and, in fact, the exact same as being one of the terrorists who attacked the towers just because they are under the impression that all Americans act like the negative sterotype.
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You can't blame me for thinking you ment more than you actually did. Especially when you use terms like "all the motherfuckers" and "support the idea at all".
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The point we're trying to make here is: BOTH are tragedies, big ones. One is larger than the other, but it doesn't matter, because it's natural for Americans to feel worse about 9/11 than the Tsunami. No one's stupid here, everyone can see this.
The thing, in the first place, is: although one tragedy was bigger than another, every single leaf that falls in USA ground is always a bigger deal than the whole Amazon Forest being wiped out. One american is worth thousands of people, and even so it does not have the same repercussion.
Prpl_Mage meant this: the tragedy that happened in 9/11 is focused way too much, when other tragedies that also happened, many times even bigger, are forgotten. That's all because USA is the bellybutton.
It's NOT a "**** them, I don't care if they died" thing. Of course everyone cares, violence is never cool. But let's give every single tragedy the same importance. If I hated the USA people I'd never be here losing my time to make a point.
I understand, Shino, that you feel bad (i was going for the word "hard", but giving a second thought...) about this, and that you're joining the military and stuff. But please, as a inteligent man, don't be blindfolded. The military also commits acts of atrocity and, most of the time, mistakes. Taking another's life is something that need a lot of thought before, you can't let your "emotions" drive you into hatred or vengeance feelings.
I said it: no nukes have yet been found. The Iraq war is totally unexcusable and unfunded. That's not how you proceed when it comes to killing others.
And remember one last thing: when they're in charge, they fake, they lie and manipulate. And that's worldwide. Do not be a killing pawn for your govenment, make your decisions base on a perception that considers absolutely everything around you.
EDIT: Meis, I just saw your post. No attack should ever happen to another country, and I'm with you on that. But your attitude defines the reactions upon you, and the USA acted as much as it could to suffer an attack like that. And it's still acting. That's why you gotta do what you can to change it.
Here in Brasil we got plenty of stuff the whole world will need, and soon: water, natural materials, etc. Still we've never suffered any attacks, only because we do not attack anyone. I don't hate people that do not cause me harm. I dislike the one's that do. When it comes to nations, the "hate that" ideology gets spread, and fast. And 9/11 is what happens.
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Idk who said it, but I recall reading something about THOSE "REDNECKS" WOULD DIE FOR THIS COUNTRY, which I thought was pretty stupid.
People who dont know any better will die for alot of things.
Blind Patriotism aint cool man.
Nationalism is stupid anyway. We're all humans.
Shino, I have a feeling that if you were born in Iraq, you'd be an extremist.
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EDIT: Meis, I just saw your post. No attack should ever happen to another country, and I'm with you on that. But your attitude defines the reactions upon you, and the USA acted as much as it could to suffer an attack like that. And it's still acting. That's why you gotta do what you can to change it.
Here in Brasil we got plenty of stuff the whole world will need, and soon: water, natural materials, etc. Still we've never suffered any attacks, only because we do not attack anyone. I don't hate people that do not cause me harm. I dislike the one's that do. When it comes to nations, the "hate that" ideology gets spread, and fast. And 9/11 is what happens.
What? I'm having a hard time understanding this. All I'm picking up from it is a "You attack other countries, you deserve this" but I'm pretty sure you don't mean that. Clear that up for me.
Secondly, American has never 'attacked' anyone prior to the invasion in Iraq. Any military acts we have undergone were either retorts from oppression (Korean War, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Revolutionary War, etc. ) or direct attacks made on us (World War I and World War II). The only 'attacks' that we might've done to the Middle East to warent any sort of hate were comedic remarks about their culture, which I in no way will apologize for because that is Freedom Of Speech and a right given at birth.
The only reason why Brazil hasn't been involved in a war is because you're people don't have that will. When another country is in peril, we aid them. The Strong should hold up the Weak. We've sacraficed our own blood in the past to perserve the rights of those we don't even know, because we believe that all humans are born equal and should be given equal rights as such.
"I don't hate people that don't cause ME harm" selfish. If there is an oppressive force out there preventing YOU from holding true to your God given rights, you sure as hell better believe that the American military would be there to assit YOU in YOUR (not our) fight to regain freedom. It is ever so nice to know that you would do the same for us.
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America has never issued a direct attack, but we've definitely done out fair share of provoking attacks. Not that 9/11 was provoked, but still we're so far from the angels you're painting us to be here, meis. I dont think we'd aid another country if it was in peril either. Not unless there was some benefit for us in it.
We're all selfish :(
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For the record, I posted that before you posted yours shino. It told me someone had posted before hand, but I just posted it anyway. I'm not some crazy anarchist, I believe cops are necessary and have nothing against them. I also have nothing against soldiers because they are just like me or you or anybody, they're just people. And there's a BIG difference between the country being invaded and shady wars fought on foreign soil for shady reasons. If this country was seriously invaded, my attitude would be completely different. I think you're reading me wrong.
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Oh no Meis, that's not what I meant at all.
See, everytime you "feel" or is actually attacked, it's a natural reaction to that that you attack your attacker (or run in fear). Same thing happens when you meddle into matters. The USA have interfered in many situations that were unfair, and that's absolutely true (WW 1, WW 2...). But, for instance, financing Israel in their fight against Palestine (sp?) is not right, not just for a justice matter, but because it will also generate hatred against the USA, and another attack to you may happen.
Also, the Iraq invasion is completely wrong. That will generate hatred towards the USA, and another attack may happen. It's pretty much like action-reaction dicotomy.
Obviously, at any slight sight of unfair agression we would help as well (as we did in WWII), although I don't really know how much help we could provide -.-' Water, maybe :\ That's not the point, though. The "will" we don't have is exacly what USA has too much.
EDIT: Rev say some true there too. Sorry, I see it from a neutral pov, you may not agree, but take it in consideration at least.
Another thing. I'm really glad that I did not see any kind of blind patriotism or nationalism here. Show that everyone's growing aware, and that the generations to come will change stuff. Maybe this tension that we got worldwide will go away...
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Thank God someone said something more controversial than what I said. I really didn't care to defend myself today (no sleep and all that).
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Well jeeze, I just keep misunderstanding everything you post Almeida.
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**** you guys and you're ****ing drama. This isn't something that should be a discussion. Don't think it's necessary? Then shut up. Want to say something in respect? Do it. People need to shut the **** up about "Oh. Americans. I'm not American so it doesn't matter. Allow me to say this in giant ****ing paragraph form." This isn't some kind of thought oppression so shut up if you even think that. Leave whatever note you want, and begone. But don't go about disrespecting the people that died. I'm not going to pull "9/11 CHANGED EVERYTHING" but goddamn, it did. On a global scale it escalated the conscious awareness of terrorism, something that many countries had been dealing with on their own with no outside interest.
I don't really feel like reading 4 damn pages, so those are my thoughts on the very first.
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I'm just gonna write, this isn't directed at anyone.
Saying that the attack of 9/11 wasn't provoked is just bullshit, I'm sorry but it's the truth. USA keep supporting Israel, with more military help every year. I know, that Israel isn't exactly the loved or loving neighbor of the middle-eastern countries. So I don't blame them for holding a grudge against america. And USA did went to Iraq during the gulf wars, dessert storm and those things. Do USA expect them to appreciate that? It's pretty common that you'll hold a grudge against a country that invades you and destroys your society.
And Bush's fancy little speech about al-quida hating the "American freedom and democracy" was answered by a message saying "If we indeed hate freedom and democracy then let the president answer why we didn't attack a country like scandenavia?"
And what happened after 9/11? America sends a lot of people to Afghanistan and more or less blow the entire place up "in search for Usama bin Ladin", what about the people? USA had, planes dropping bombs and all that ****, USA didn't just hit the "extremnists".
And then USA went to Iraq as well and accused them for having nukes? As Al said, no nukes were found. And saying that USA went to Iraq for the terrorists, that's just low. If USA went there for the terrorists, why did they hang Iraq's leader Sadam Hussein?
USA left a country without a working lead and tries to "help it" being rebuilt, do USA expect people to bomb themselves if they really wanted USA's help? Certainly not. It's not helping the people.
The countries of the middle-east have many more reasons to hate USA now, it was just a jihad form a certain group but as they said in that movie Team America "America managed to piss off the entire world again".
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This is, no offense to the people of USA, just the goverment.
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The people of USA, of course I respect the dead, but my post was more about how we're still expected to remember and respect the dead of 9/11 and not the Tsunami victims.
We lost people in the Tsunami, We lost Swedes in the Tsunami. One(1) Swede was at the World trade center during the attack.
See how this doesn't work? I know you don't care for us Swedes, we are just a dump of **** on the world map huh? Just another lapdog.
But when we are expected, by your goverment to have this quiet minute for the dead of 9/11 and even have the nerve to say "make it 4 minutes since it was so tragic" and yet, during the Tsunami, we were asked if we wanted to have 1 minute, and those were our people.
Many dead, many missing. Families having to stay home in sweden and waiting to find out if their relatives were alive or not. Your accident was in your own country. We didn't know what happened down there in Thailand.
Sure, you don't care much for Thailand or the people of Thailand, but not caring about those dead and then calling everyone else 'respectless' who states that they "weren't that affected by 9/11" is wrong. That's the one main grudge I have against those kinds of americans. Those who expects symphaty from all the other countries but doesn't give it back.
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And yes, 9/11 was good for anti-terrosits, but explain why our goverment had to finance with so much money(from our view) while we've had 0 attacks from terrorists. We are the ****ing country where the refugees go when a country invades another.
We are the country that have to clean up the mess others leave behind.
We are neutral, and yet we are forced to follow USA goverment like dogs. They send that Ms.Rice person and a week later our govement decides that we should get a computer here that will read what we are writing in text messages, chatrooms, msn, phone calls and such. Why? The goverment said "To stop eventual terrorist attacks and orginazed crime."
We are the land of freedom, no one got a single reason to bomb us, we take thier people for God's sake.
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My condolences to relatives of 9/11 victims and I'm sorry for even being missunderstood so this thread became 4 pages to those who were there.
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Tragedy: 9/11
Bigger tragedy: This thread
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Hey, you, Prpl. All the people that died in the Tsunami... yeah. That was provoked though, so it doesn't matter. Cuz theys like didn't worship that big glowing thing in the sky and didn't give annual sacrafices to the water fairy.
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Well jeeze, I just keep misunderstanding everything you post Almeida.
Sorry, sometimes I feel troubled to make myself clear...I may know the grammar and stuff, but I'd need to live there a while to get used to the way people say things for real...
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Yeah...This thread went pretty much exactly where I was hoping it wouldn't go.
Protip: Never talk about 9/11 or anything too terribly United States-related on the internet. It always leads to... Well, this.
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No, what lead to the downfall of this thread were the people who started saying "Screw 9/11, there are more important things that we should be remembering".
If they wanted to have a moment of silence for the Tsunami victims, they should've made their own topic about it rather than attempting to undermind this one.
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No, what lead to the downfall of this thread were the people who started saying "Screw 9/11, there are more important things that we should be remembering".
If they wanted to have a moment of silence for the Tsunami victims, they should've made their own topic about it rather than attempting to undermind this one.
Truer words have never been spoken
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I don't know, I think Archem has a point.
Look at just about every other topic about the US on Charas. This ALWAYS happens.
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I think the biggest issue here is that the true reason to remember 9/11 is exactly the reason they wanted to attack america in the first place. 9/11 was terrible because it sent the message that no-one was safe from terrorism, no matter how powerful or rich you are, and that message will last for many many years.
In short, the only winners are the terrorists.
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Well duh. The instant they pull off a successful attack, they win. There's no way of erasing the actions. The whole point is to cause as much damage to human life and symbolic property as possible while spending as little money as possible. Once it's done, the message is sent, and the game has ended. The aftershock and future events won't fix it. It's like bleach.