Charas-Project
Off-Topic => All of all! => Topic started by: Zerlina on August 06, 2012, 02:12:49 AM
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Hey wondering what all your thoughts are on this.
I came across this blog:
http://fatuglyorslutty.com/category/jealous/ (http://fatuglyorslutty.com/category/jealous/)
Is it just a few sex-deprived 15 year olds who dish out homophobic and sexist language? Or is it something else?
I know a lot of people say to just laugh it off and not feed the trolls, but when so much online interaction is dominated by a sometimes violent and almost always offensive environment, is ignoring the problem just making it worse? A lot of my friends will not even go online to game because they know that they're going to be humiliated and harassed.
Sexism in the gaming community can be really subtle, but it seems like it's always there, even when it's not as obvious as the comments posted in that blog. Some examples from real life- I work at a game store and every day guys come up and ask "So do you actually play games or are you just here to look pretty?" then they're confused when I and my other female employees aren't blushing from their supposedly obvious compliment. They wouldn't ask any of our male coworkers the same question. Sometimes they'll go straight to the male coworker even if I'm closer to them, and ask them for help. On another note, if they ask about a particular game that isn't one I've played (for example, Call of Duty) they'll make some comment like "Oh, well is there someone here who actually plays games and isn't just here to bring in lonely guys?" The other girls I work with get the same flack, meanwhile if one of the guys who works at the store doesn't know about a particular game, it's not a big deal.
Then there's this really weird double standard, where celebrities or politicians are torn apart for being homophobic or racist (as really they should be) but then it's somehow acceptable to say hateful, homophobic things online?
So I guess, yeah- apart from being partly a vent, I really do want to know what the thoughts are on this forum. I feel like all of this sexism and homophobia is both making gaming inhospitable to women (apparently 47% of gamers), and also giving us a bad reputation as a community.
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lawl.
Ignore it. That stuff happens in games all the time. Sometimes people are pissed because they are losing, sometimes they are trying to troll, but it all rounds down to boredom.
I read a few of those blog posts on your link, and almost all of them have some almighty comment like "I guess they wuz just mad cuz I be killin' em all" or "they bez angry cuz they getz no kills".
The bloggers are just as guilty of slander through the internet as anyone else. Wording and directness are really the only differences. It is just how things happen. What better than a society populated by real people that you never have to interact with personally to lash out at? Can't tease people IRL, internet. Can't talk **** to people IRL, internet. Are you 32 but miss acting like a kid; internet. No one will listen to your silly problems, bored people will read them on the internet.
Leave it be, quit taking things personally, and if someone annoys you there are plenty of blocking options. If they say they are going to come to your house to kill you; just remember that you are more likely to get shot watching Dark Knight Rises than the persona actually putting the controller down and flying their *** somewhere.
Nothing offensive meant, but since this is in the internet someone will undoubtedly read more into it than necessary.
EDIT: As far as the sexism issue goes, whatever. Pout and moan all you want, but I believe the gender gap is accurate when it comes to video games. I know A LOT of girls that play games, but all of them are worse than I am, and barely any of them play FPS. I know a lot of guys that play games, and many are better than me and almost all of them play some type of FPS. I'm sure a lot of guys could quote those last two sentences with complete true.
My argument is that using COD is a bad example. Try Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Pokemon, Zelda, etc. Those series, and many others, seem to not be so 'male oriented'.
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It's true that sexism is a huge problem in the gaming community. It has a lot to do with the anonymity thing, and the fact that it's been seen as a male hobby for decades. Women are really starting to get involved these days, and while some people are just dicks, others genuinely feel threatened by females. Emasculation or something. As for not taking women seriously in a video game-related environment, an attractive female seems more artificial than the fat, ugly male that exists in the same environment. That's a compare/contrast issue as well as a "male hobby" issue. That, and the gamers who consider themselves to be "hardcore" are bad with women, and feel uncomfortable with interacting with them.
It's a series of deep-rooted problems, and it's unlikely to improve for years to come. I don't think it should just be ignored, though. I can't stand prejudice of any sort in my community, and vocally express my anger with actions or words that are made to offend someone who isn't a single white male. It's disgusting, even if it is the status-quo. Taking a stand makes a difference. Still, it's hard to win in a stacked game, and as for right now, the assholes of the world have the advantage.
Here's what I suggest: In a non-hostile environment, flaunt the nerdiness and force interaction. With time, this becomes the new normal, and it no longer seems phony or awkward. I have no suggestions for a hostile situation, but I'm not a hostile person. Perhaps finding a group of people to roll with can even the odds if things turn ugly.
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Archem, that's actually pretty articulate, and I'm really glad it's coming from you. I know here on the community we all like to push boundaries sometimes- you do it, I do it, a lot of us do. But here I feel like we rarely ever push too far- as a community we might haze each other a little but we never really cross the line into harassment. I think it's something that Archem (at least as far as I've seen) you've managed to do pretty well.
Lucas and Jesusisme, do you think maybe saying "It's not a big deal, calm down" is an inappropriate response to people who are experiencing repeated sexual harassment?
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It's not just sexism, but general raging bigotry and stupidity. Just yesterday I was playing CoD and I had some 12 year old call me a motherfucking **** faggot simply for ending his kill streak. It's the internet, people are generally prone to being assholes to one another simply because it's convenient.
But as long as we're on the subject of sex and video games... I am a male yet I have and very much so enjoy Cooking Mama.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/14jlslw.jpg)
People generally give me weird looks when I say I have and enjoy that game. And don't even get me started on Princess Maker.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/34snjwl.png)
Yes, I play and thoroughly enjoy Princess Maker and I am a proud owner of a penis.
As Sir Isaac Asimov said "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Quite simply ignore the bigots, their angry words are all they have left at their disposal.
Now then... tits or gtfo! :P
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I don't like ignoring a problem and pretending it doesn't exist. It doesn't do anything to help make things better or actually put an end to the problem. If playing a game online as a female leads to repeated and aggressive sexual harassment, isn't that a problem to address? It's not as big a deal as other issues that deserve recognition, like the things Lucas referenced, but it's still a problem and deserves people's attention all the same. Lucas, you've claimed to be tired, so I can forgive your comment until tomorrow. Have something good written up by then. MIC, I'm slightly disappointed in your approach. You go straight for the tired "ignore it" option, leaving the problem there. Sweeping it under the rug works in the short term, but eventually there's going to be some massive lumps under that rug that are drawing some serious attention. I'm sure we all know that focusing on something is the best way to try and change it. I am completely fine with telling all of you (repeatedly if necessary) to change your game and be vocal about the issue. I hate it, I want you to hate it, and I want it to become a socially unacceptable stance, even in this culture.
Last-minute addition to address Greenraven's undercutting post: There's nothing wrong with liking something that isn't immediately masculine; I do so rather frequently. The end result is increased popularity by way of being different. Love something, don't hide that love, and make damn sure that the world knows it. Some people will poke fun at first, but then the world accepts it. Everyone loves me despite (or because of) my quirks, online and off, and that's because of confidence and never letting the worst of the world get to me. Haters will hate, but when public opinion inevitably swings in my favor, they either keep that hate private or change their views. Unpopular opinions don't stand for very long if you make sure to show that they have no reason to exist.
Zerl, you should be taking notes. I think I'm suddenly on a soap box or something.
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I thoroughly believe the "People are dicks, live with it" argument is complete and utter bull.
The fact that people are still such dicks about things, in this day and age, is exactly the reason why we should do something about it.
Make a scene, raise awareness, etc.
And regarding Greenraven: I direct you to my avatar.
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Lucas and Jesusisme, do you think maybe saying "It's not a big deal, calm down" is an inappropriate response to people who are experiencing repeated sexual harassment?
Nah. I mean, if you wanna take things personally that a person who doesn't know you personally said to you, whatever; more power to you.
A long time ago, I remember posting on here looking for help with my erectile dysfuction issue. I got made fun of for it, but I didn't really give much of a **** because no one here actually knows me. Hell, short of a few people, no one even knows my name.
So yeah, "Its not a big deal" is pretty accurate, considering someone random sending you a PSN message saying "i'm gonna fuk ur **** bitch nigga" is lower than someone telling you that you are smelly in person.
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It's more of a matter of dealing with it frequently, not of taking the comments to heart. No person should have to put up with the constant stream of harassment because of a single chromosome.
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Yeah, seriously, Archem. I don't think I've ever seen you do this before XD. It shall go down in charas history.
Fruck, I posted the same link on my facebook and one girl commented "Saying "it happens all the time" or that "boys will be boys" takes away all accountibility for thier actions. It vilifies the victims making them seem overly sensitive. " which I think plays into the argument that you're making
I feel like it's sometimes impossible for men to stand up for respect (as you and Archem have done) because it opens the defending men up to vilification. The old insult "White Knight" is often used, implying the guy just wants to get laid by the girl he's defending.
What I think is really important is reclaiming the term and turning it into something positive- a joint effort to say a "Fine, I'm a White Knight. No, that doesn't mean I'm out to cyber. It means I'm someone who believes in respect for those with whom we share a community." If the stigma from defending victims of sexual harassment can be removed, then more men will step up to the plate. If more men step up to the plate, then it becomes clear that not only women find it socially unacceptable but "the boys" do too.
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I can't speak for everyone else, but my reason for "just ignore it" is simply because it's just not worth the hassle. Rarely if ever anything fruitful gets accomplished. More often than not reporting offensive players will get them banned, only to create a new account.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2e4vh2c.png)
Let's face it, most trolls/haters are attention whores, if you ignore them they go away.
@Zerlina, I've never heard "White Knight" used in a derogatory fashion before. O_O
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Men stand for respect, their fellow men, think of them as weak. And many times their fellow females too.
Is easier to be a douche bag online, than being nice. This mentality not only can grow to be an instinct but it start to feels natural (which is about the same thing) as people or "friends" approve of it.
Social consensus.
It's the internet. It. Won't. Change.
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I do have an issue with some peoples here throwing terms like bigot and such around, purely because it is hypocritical that people are tolerant of others are intolerant of those who express intolerance. The rally to generalize people is also sickening too, but yeah... keep on lookin down on humanity. It isn't like the people ya'll be complaining about are doing that or anything.
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Saying "it won't change so don't try" might seems true in an over-arching sense, but individuals can make changes in small ways. If a girl is being harassed by a bunch of guys calling her a dirty slut and telling her they're going to rape her with their rifle, and nobody steps in, the girl will think that everyone thinks this behaviour is okay. It means a lot to someone who is being harassed when someone else steps up to the plate and says what's happening is wrong. So even if in a broader sense there isn't widespread change, you can make a difference for one person at a time.
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If a girl is being harassed by a bunch of guys calling her a dirty slut and telling her they're going to rape her with their rifle,
Now, is this a message being sent to you by a person on a mic 300 miles away, or in person to your face?
The later is a whole other deal, and I like to believe that anyone decent would stand up and help. The first... just tolerate it. You never know why a person is upset when you can't see them.
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Zerlina still on the sexism kick? She's been doing that for years now.
As Sir Isaac Asimov said "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
You're my new favorite person for making this quote.
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XD
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Now, I didn't read everyone's post, so maybe someone said this already, but basically my thoughts on it are this: Sexism is pervasive in most cultures around the world, in some form or another. So it makes sense that it would take some weird form within the gaming community, but still be relatively unoriginal. Guys asserting their supposedly rightful dominance over women in every aspect of life imaginable. It's all about how you should stop trying so hard to keep up with "the boys" (in this case, quite literally) and go back in the goddamn kitchen and make me a sammich and bring me a beer. It's not cool, it's fucked up and I see it everywhere, from being blatantly obvious like my boss being a perverted old prick every time a young girl comes into the store, to the subtle jokes some of my closest friends make. It's not easy to really fight back against because it's so ingrained in everything we do, but you can't ignore it if you want to be a happier person and everyone who acknowledges its existence should speak up about it even if it's not easy to do.
So yeah, there's my little moral rant. Sorry you have to deal with sexist assholes when you're simply trying to do your job.
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Well, how should I put this. It's mostly the game's fault in this case. Nearly all of those games were competitive shooting/fps games. Those games attract a certain kind of people. Kinda like how soccer and such attract a certain kind of people. People who after a days work just want to vent everything they are locking up inside. Hatred and contempt of other people, trying to live their lives but hating themselves for the failure they are.
Well that or just a 13 year old punk who thinks his Kill/death ratio is as important as the nads between his legs.
Any game that introduces a PvP moment where you can check people's statistics will get heated. Just a game as soul calibur gets heated when playing online. People drop out of the game when losing to avoid getting that loss in their statistics. And then they come back online and send you a message such as "you ****ing spammer". Well woopdewopp, you played mitsurougi and spammed forward forward B.
Of course I've been called a lot of worse things. ****, pussy ect ect is not words used only against women. It's used as insults and will be used for just that, calling someone a **** is worse than calling someone an ***hole since ***hole is said pretty much anywhere. It lost effect.
Getting away from my point perhaps? Well when facing other people and you're losing - you're gonna throw some hate at them. Allow mics in the game and you're definitely gonna get hate thrown at you. Allowing microphones is probably one of the worst ideas ever. People say things when they are angry. Either at your character, the game or the person who just sniped you from an unreachable point of the map. And when they are angry they will say things. But when a person actually writes something he's pissed.
I play a whole lot of games with my brother. With is the word here, not against. And his temper when it comes to games is just as heated as his temper when it comes to sport and his favourite team is losing. Being on skype or ventrilo with him when he dies in Diablo 3 can cause several hearing problems. He yells at the game for being a complete piece of **** and that it's not even worth playing. He says that his character is a stupid **** that can't do **** right and that the enemies are complete ***-raped faggots. Let him vent all that and 2 minutes later he's back to his normal charming ways. It might have been obvious but he doesn't take losing very well.
Which is the problem with all of these games. My bro doesn't direct this at any specific person since it's a PvE game but he would if he was playing pvp.
And in these games you have a private message option, which means that the other players won't see what a jerk that guy is. Which means that they'll have to post it on a blogg. And by then it's already too late. Failure in behaviour needs to be corrected when it happens. Like with cats. Telling them afterwards won't have the same effect since they are not in that state of mind later. They might be a really charming person now and love all types of people.
Worst part is that this kind of treatment have always appeared outside the internet. But outside the reach of teachers or parents it goes by unnoticed, or rather uncorrected.
So what I'm saying is that what they say are not personal but rather the result of a state of mind. Mostly. There can be a lot of anger. But when playing just like working (or being on a forum) you need to enter some professional role where things said at you isn't said at you but rather what you are right now. Just like Jeysis is saying, you can't take something personal if it's from someone who doesn't know you personally. It's not gonna be nice, just like an umpire in any sports. They'll call you names, but they don't care about the person wearing the outfit just the tag and the stripes.
They represent something that you make fun of or complain about. And in a game when you kill someone or ends someone kill-streak you're just the ***hole who did just that - kill you or wrecked your kill streak. They don't know or care about anything else.
As for your bad working experience. All people get some taste of that. People treat me differently because I'm young and a gamer. If I were a jock among nerds I would stick as well. Old people in toy shops gets some pervert looks. It's just unfortunate that women aren't completely merged with the gamers yet. But I think we can blame some videobloggs for that where women in revealing outfits talk about games.
Not that talking about games is wrong, it's just that it sends a pretty messed up message where the woman is merely there to appeal to men. When someone asks you if you play any games just start rambling all the games you've played over the years. If they ask if you're just there to be pretty ask them what their high score is in Cruel Multi man melee and let them know that you actually beat their ***- if it's not a sad sad fps.
The guys are probably just really scared of you. Attractive girl in a store with video games, what if they start talking game with you and then it turns out you only got the job because your brother worked there? They'd look like fools and get really embarrassed.
I mean no offense at all against professions but I still have a hard time entering a store when there's a woman at the counter and handing over the latest pokemon game for purchase. Nothing against her, she's doing her job. But it's become a pretty common thing to hide nerdiness around girls(especially the kind involving pokemon or anything else I played when I was like 10) that it feels a bit odd.
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I've never been so far as to can even come close to understanding what I just read.
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The main problem is that a girl who likes to play that sort of game is such a rare and desirable person that the other people playing assume the worst and think you're on there for attention :p
Difficult to know what to do, if you want to play using the headset.
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It's embedded in our heads that games are designed by male losers, mostly for male losers. This isn't the real case at all. Luckily, this stereotype is slowly disappearing as more diverse groups of people play games.
I can admit to being a bit of a bigot sometimes when it comes to girls playing games, even if unintentional. Just the other day I met an unbelievably pretty co-worker who was very much into video games and anime. It through me for a loop just based on her looks that she was so into that, even though it is the wrong way of thinking.
In my defense, she has a look-alike that she knows about who is a straight up Mean Girl, and I met this other woman first.
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In my personal experience I have noticed that the whole male vs female stigmata is yesterday's news and is fading on the brink of extinction. The new battleground seems to be hardcore vs casual.
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I thought we were talking about within the internet. Outside of it, is an entire different lingo. I try to help out my female companion from almost every single thing she gets stuck in, not because she can't, or isn't able to, but because it's my instinct, when she declines, I secede. She's actually very capable of defending herself. The wit of her is better than mine. This is also almost generally true when it happens to other girls. However in the internet. I would probably do not do such thing.
I mean if everybody here would just start harassing Zerlina, I would probably not do anything about it. I would rationalize that she'd have the capacity to just turn away from internet idiots.
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I mean if everybody here would just start harassing Zerlina, I would probably not do anything about it. I would rationalize that she'd have the capacity to just turn away from internet idiots.
I will almost always try and defend anyone who is getting harassed, both online and in real life. In my younger days I was subject to extreme bullying, I know how it feels. (Inbred close-minded redneck hillbillies don't take too kindly to us devil worshiping immigrants.) XD
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I liked purple's post. It basically boils down to NOT TAKING THINGS PERSONALLY on the internet.
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I still don't like how many of you are accepting it as a constant and treating it as something that should be left alone. It really irks the hell out of me. Not taking it seriously can only go so far, and ignoring constant harassment shouldn't be an option. It's not the same as being a harassed male; we get trolled a bit, but the only true harassment comes when we make a major error in a game. Women get it simply for being women. It's not that different from racism or other forms of bigotry; it's still hate, and it doesn't stop when they play better. Hell, it makes things worse because they're suddenly threatening the harasser's masculinity. I'm telling you, leaving an infection alone doesn't make it get better. It festers and spreads unless it's treated.
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Problem is that it's hard to know when it's just anger and when it's directed as harassment.
I get that jerks open their stupid mouths and say stupid things. Which is why we tell them to shut the hell up. But if that jerk sends a private message to someone - I won't know. It's done so that noone else will notice since if others did they would tell him to shut the hell up as well.
I just remember my time playing DotA and such, it got some prestige. Getting killed too many times gives the opposite team a whole lot of exp, and money. And getting killed also cuts some of your funds.
So when I and my buddy ganged up on a player to kill him(for that extra cash) he eventually would get pissed and start ranting.
When a person like that write it in the chat everyone would tell him to chill out or leave. And they know it. So they sent whispers(PM) instead. And boy those were never pleasant things to read. And to be honest, all those messages followed the exact same pattern as the ones posted by those ladies.
It's about how I, my mom and my sisters are gonna be raped and by what type of object. Throw in some threats and racial slurs and it's pretty much complete. I'm a swedish male but that made no difference. Every "angry letter" referred to me as either a : bitch, fag, N-word, nazi, n00b, ***hole, dick, pussy or a neat mix of all. Was actually called a faggot nazi bitch once. True story.
How did I reply? Well either with nothing or "That's the game bro, play it or leave it to the pro". (I only wrote it 'cuz it rhymed though. I thought rhymes were cool back then).
Replying to it as a PM only made the person in question go on. Ignoring it at least gave me some peace. When they're that pissed they'll probably leave the game pretty soon anyway.
And that's pretty much my reason why I can't take this too serious. It's always been like this, despite sex and race. You'll get hate when you piss someone off. I can't say for certain that those people would treat guys differently. That's not my place but I don't see why they should.
If your name says "gal", "african" , "jew" or anything else, that just might reveal what would actually insult you - they will use it. Insults are insults in the end and it's about not letting them get to you, if they do they've won. Can't get upset by every single angry thing someone says. You'd drown if you do.
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It's not the same as being a harassed male; we get trolled a bit, but the only true harassment comes when we make a major error in a game. Women get it simply for being women.
I would actually disagree with that statement, at least based on my own experiences. I guess it depends on what crowd of people you hang with. It really depends on the game and the crowd it attracts I suppose.
For example shooters or fighting games probably WILL have women insulted simply for being women. But on the other hand dorky card games where everyone thinks a lot will only have them insulted if they actually did something wrong (stupid).
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To say there's sexisim in games is a sexist comment within itself.
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...ok, I bite...how exactly?
Seriously, explain your argument.
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With the whole sexism thing, it's not that I'm unsympathetic. It's just that I don't care. I make what I believe is a halfway decent attempt at being fair. If other people can't, or people believe my standards aren't high enough, well, nuts to them.
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...ok, I bite...how exactly?
Seriously, explain your argument.
Because it is basically an attack against men. If she were just talking about generally bullying, she would've used that term. However, she used sexism, implying that men are the root cause (since women are on the defending side).
I've personally witnessed angry women send ventilation PMs to people, so I know they do it too.
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I've personally witnessed angry women send ventilation PMs to people, so I know they do it too.
Isn't that basically what this thread is in a nutshell?
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Because it is basically an attack against men. If she were just talking about generally bullying, she would've used that term. However, she used sexism, implying that men are the root cause (since women are on the defending side).
I've personally witnessed angry women send ventilation PMs to people, so I know they do it too.
The term "sexism" isn't an attack on men, it's a generic term- it can be applied both to men and to women equally. To be honest, I find it somewhat worrisome that you talk about discussing sexism as if it were just a tool to degrade men.
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I'm hoping that they weren't serious. Otherwise, there are some problems at play here.
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Yeah, I know what sexism means. However, the way it was used in this topic was only geared towards males bashing women or homosexuals. I don't remember everything I read, but I'm pretty sure no one brought up women belittling men over video game chat.
It obviously is not as big of an issue when you reverse the genders, and pretty much everyone recognizes it. That is why "sexism in video games" is normally women complaining about the actions of men, and the rare occasion of men complaining about other men being sexist toward their orientation.
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I'm getting spats of that, too, Lucas.
Anyway, men don't complain about the considerably less frequent sexism. It seems to be a combination of several factors, including the obvious rarity. Male-on-male sexism isn't quite sexism, it's just insults. Suggestions of sexuality are bigotry of a different variety, and gender isn't the primary focus. Women aren't typically as aggressive, so when a sexist woman comes into play, it becomes easy to ignore, laugh at, or marvel over due to the novelty. There is no novelty in frequent sexual harassment, though, so ignoring, laughing, or marveling at it become rather difficult after some time. Given that traditional gender roles put men in power, it really is hard to do damage to them. Psychology is powerful. Honestly, sexism contra-male is common in media. Men are typecast as stupid and crude frequently. Often, it's presented in a humorous fashion, and isn't very explicit, so it flies under the radar. The subject at hand is angry, vulgar, threatening stuff. I understand the idea of sexism against males, but in practice, it's far from comparable. Anyway, I'm not even sure if sexism is the right word anymore. It's more like sexually-charged, aggressive verbal abuse than a gender-roles thing most of the time.
I feel that I'm starting to make my point a bit confusing, so I'll stop now before it sounds like rambling nonsense.
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We might as well call it Misogyny while we're at it huh?
This is how I feel. Feed the insulter anything to go with and s/he will use it to insult you. Call yourself kingdomheartsrikku666 and he'll bash kingdom hearts. Games that show the players nationality will get a lot of racial slurs such as "****ing germans ruining the game" or "stupid j€ws go back to destroying the w0rld". And people who are called anything among the lines of "furry" "kitten" "ponie" will get a taste of that.
That's how you do insults, you attack a person personally. And they don't know you, so they will just go with whatever they can get. Being female is one of those things.
Not sure how to deal with constant boyfriend request over Xbox live though. I'm not even sure they can be taken very seriously. But then again I've never been subjected to it. And even if I did I doubt anyone would care. Which is probably the problem here, it's impossible to picture yourself there. Since when the exact same thing happens you just shrug it off and laugh at the guys temper.
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The big difference is that without any instigation, most people won't insult other people simply for who they are or what their handle is. Women do face the threat of harassment simply for being women. It happens quite often, and lasts for long durations. "xXFuRFaNXx" likely won't get picked out of a crowd and humiliated for hours (both in game and with private messages) if they're male, non-confrontational, and of average performance levels in a game. The name will inevitably get some harassment, but it's unlikely to last for more than a few minutes. Women will get picked out almost immediately, mostly because of the voice. This leads to the harassment, which can go on for a long time, and as we've seen, can persist after the end of the game.
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To say there's sexisim in games is a sexist comment within itself.
Because it is basically an attack against men. If she were just talking about generally bullying, she would've used that term. However, she used sexism, implying that men are the root cause (since women are on the defending side).
I've personally witnessed angry women send ventilation PMs to people, so I know they do it too.
I'm guessing you two are prominent voices against "reverse racism" too.
Anyway, I have noticed this in a number of forums and gaming communities: When the female population increases, sexist behavior drops in frequency. The guilds that are the most welcoming to women tend to be the ones that already have a decent number of women. This could be because when male gamers have regular contact with female players, their femaleness stops being remarkable.
Is sexism endemic to male gamers, moreso than average men? Maybe. Someone on Reddit speculated on why Redditors tend to be so damn sexist, saying that they are mostly socially challenged, probable virgins, and have trouble getting dates. So went the theory, guys like that tend to assume women have a much easier time getting laid and harbor a lot of resentment toward them for that reason (and I guess, also that they're getting laid with someone who isn't them).
And then there's another theory of mine, similar to my first: The most decent, egalitarian men tend to have platonic female friends. Female friends that they enjoy spending time with and don't care about getting into their pants. Seeing past someone's gender when it comes to hanging out/watching a movie/having a beer is a great big step toward maturity for a lot of people.
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I'm indifferent about a person's gender. This sometimes makes me come off as a jerk for not being a perfect gentleman around women, but you can't accuse me of being unfair.
End result: Everyone likes me for being up-front about myself.
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I do!
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I agree with Archem's last post.
I don't see genders when I look at people.
If I'm playing COD2 and I get pissed and PM someone that that person is a dick, I'm not caring if the person actually has a penis or not.
If they call me a ****, I'm sure they don't care if I actually have a vagina or not.
If they tell me they are going to rape me because I am a pussy girl on my period, then yeah, they are being sexist against women because they are using female only attributes as insults. However, I don't feel they are insulting me as a person, and they could care less if I were actually a female of not. They will use those insults regardless of the gender they are insulting. No direct sexism.
So yeah, ultimately if your argument is that sexism exists in gaming because men are using commonly female oriented terms like "girl, pussy, ****, slut, etc" to insult people (implying that having female qualities is bad), then you have some basis. People complain about these insults.
"Dick, prick, bastard, boi, douchebag, fag, etc" are generally only male oriented insults (implying male qualities are bad), and they are used commonly as well. Never seen anyone cry about them though... cept fag. Women don't seem to care, and neither do men.
So yeah, that is my argument why sexism is pretty much a female thing, and is a little bit sexist in itself. All the time you hear about men defending women, but not really women defending men in sexism. If a woman brings up sexism, it is typically because men are belittling women.
The only time I can think that men would complain about sexism is for homosexual rights; which I support.
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But women 'get to' complain about being called "****, pussy, girl, etc"?
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lawl, whatever.
Edit: Kinda further supports the sexist side of sexism.
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Men are free to complain, but they don't. It's that position of power thing I touched on a while back. An attempt by a woman to insult a man is rarely taken seriously.
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Exactly. And since men are a privileged group, they can't.
Assuming you're not sort of trolling here, this is the purest form of BS, and is why I don't take any of these persecution complex rants seriously.
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Yes, we middle class white men are so opressed.
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And then there's another theory of mine, similar to my first: The most decent, egalitarian men tend to have platonic female friends. Female friends that they enjoy spending time with and don't care about getting into their pants. Seeing past someone's gender when it comes to hanging out/watching a movie/having a beer is a great big step toward maturity for a lot of people.
You are my new favorite person here. Can't a guy hang out with a girl just for the sake of having a buddy? Everywhere I go with my gal friend, I am either dubbed a boyfriend or gay, by both sexes. It actually pries on me a little. I wonder in what argument this falls in.
Also this kinda like how theres a BET but where's no "WET". It matters who is fighting for your rights. I guess. But this is the internet. LoL away.
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Once again. Don't forget that these messages are written by angry people. And angry people say angry things. Insults such as bastard, dick, penis, jerk, douchebag, ***hole, prick, faggot, twink, nigga, nazi, bitch, hoe ect ect is barely considered insults anymore since we get them everywhere. TV, music, games, (like in the Witcher 2 where they say "****" all the friggin time) and social interactions have made those words banal.
What remains, the more crude words are those that are sexist. Sexist remarks are one of few remaining things that can get people upset. Throw that fact together with a bunch of non-rpg gamers who play stuff like CoD, Counter strike, DotA or whatever who just play to win and get stats.
Top all that with the fact that they just got beaten by a girl and all their buddies saw it - there will be hate and a failed attempt to save manliness and brohood. Which are insults based on the persons gender and usually kitchen stuff.
These games host an environment not at all different from a sports team. Or playing sports. If you were playing a sport and the opposite team had 1 girl on their team they would get treated differently as long as they are considered girls. Especially if she's owning the other team.
And with that just like anything, the more common it gets. The less special it is and noone will bother. Like Val said. Guilds with a lot of women or at least a balanced sex don't mind. But being the only girl in a guild will make you stick out. And some of the younger members will think it okay to hit on her unless corrected by the others.
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Well I've had enough of this thread. The first three pages were weird enough with points I couldn't agree on in the face of the ones that make sense.
Do women get harassed on the internet? Yes? Do they deserve it? No. Does anyone deserve it? No. Do they get harassed because they ARE women? Often.
Archem's(?) early comment about more girls playing video games struck me as odd, it's been nearly 50/50 (I think like, 42% of game players are women) for many years now, it's not a recent change.
Why does all this sexism happen? Because it turns out a lot of the men on the internet are stupid. A lot of them off the internet are stupid too. And women. A majority of the human population are idiots and terrible people, the internet just filters out the good ones.
Anyway, then we got to this page and Lucas had to say the PRIVILEGE word and now I am getting the **** outta here. There is nothing I hate more than Social Justice, besides the people who go on about it.
I mean obviously we haven't got to the stage ITT where we're discussing trangender this, CIS that, heteronormative this and triggerwarning that, but god help me if you even joke about it I will delete the whole website. Note: I don't even have the administrative powers to do that, so I'll buy a ticket to wherever the server is hosted and bludgeon someone to death with it.
Possibly Lucas?
I haven't slept much lately.
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da fuq did I just read?
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I think this thread lost coherency a while back. People are now just shouting random things that are sort of related to something.
Also, I like the fact that Zerlina plants this bomb in the middle of a crowded street and pretty much just walks away to let the carnage happen on it's own. XD
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Archem's(?) early comment about more girls playing video games struck me as odd, it's been nearly 50/50 (I think like, 42% of game players are women) for many years now, it's not a recent change.
It depends on the game. I think the statistics are skewed by Bejeweled and Farmville.
Anyway, then we got to this page and Lucas had to say the PRIVILEGE word and now I am getting the **** outta here. There is nothing I hate more than Social Justice, besides the people who go on about it.
You...need to get over this, buddy.
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I'm not your buddy, guy!
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Didn't plant a bomb and walked away, was just sick yesterday. But yeah, starting to feel like this thread is getting a little incoherent.
I'm finding the "girls just shouldn't let it bother them" remarks to be a little odd, since it places the blame on the victim for being upset when people are harassing her. Saying "calm down" or referring to bringing up the subject as "whining" is bad too, because it's just undermining a legitimate problem by making it seem like those who acknowledge the issue (women and men) are over-reacting. These kinds of statements are what's referred to as "gaslighting."This article very easily sums it up (the article itself focuses on women as they are easily targeted with gaslighting. I've seen it used on men, too, however). http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/ (http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/)
"Guys on the internet are jerks, live with it" is also problematic because it's like saying "Boys will be boys" just take what they give you. Further, as we've seen on this forum, not all guys on the internet are idiots, so it's pretty demeaning to lump every male in with those who are spouting abuse.
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Girls should feel proud they can make guys feel that their masculinity is threatened so much that they feel the need to send heinous and retarded message so they can feel like they have large penises. Or something.
Really, I guess I can't say much because this doesn't really affect me, since I'm a guy, and sucking at a game will just result in a "u suck" or "lol noob" rather than super long and elaborated sexist messages, but honestly, I don't see how this can really be offensive.
In fact, personally, I'd probably find it funny if someone felt the need to waste their time writing mostly retarded crap that actually make them look like they're 12 years old (though I'm fairly sure most of these are from 20+ years old guys).
Again, though, I guess I can't really talk, I suppose it's different when you actually have to deal with this.
I'd say, if actions can be taken, take then. Report, whatever, anything. If not, then, just laugh at this poor excuse of a human being and live your life knowing that you possibly ruined the fun of a miserable worthless pile of sh*t.
I also don't think this whole problem should be ignored, because I guess it does make girls less likely to attempt playing online and/or competitively, and also because it may lead some to believe that most gamers are arse holes, but the thing is that there isn't much that can really be done.
I'll also admit I read nothing except the first post of this topic. And screw you guys for not wishing me nor Natako a happy birthday! I still love you all, though.
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You know whats better? Getting hate mail for beating people's asses.
Happens all the time in UMvC3. Salty effers.
The thing with the whole "girls just shouldn't let it bother them" its that its ambiguous; that is within guy talk. Within gal talk is "guys just shouldn't let it bother them". My peeve with most of this is argument, is that is that. Just an argument. After this thread is gone, no one is going to change, nobody is gonna become better. We all acknowledge the topic, before the topic. No one here is gonna say "Oh my gawd you're right I didn't notice" .
Of course for sake of discussion and time wasting this perfectly socially acceptable.
Unless of course we would form a charas task force against sexism. Then this thread wouldn't be a complete-well you know.
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Not me. I'm never going to call another ps3 account holder a bitch, slut, ****, hoe, sperm magnet, etc, again due to the fact that some account holders might take it personally.
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Neither would I. In fact, I'd actually never waste my time sending crap mail or just insulting people through the microphone because it would do nothing but show how much of a retarded twat I am.
I mean, when you feel the urge to insult someone for not being good... then perhaps you're taking the game too seriously. And if you get an urge to insult someone for kicking your arse... then you're pretty much a looser.
And worse, if you feel the urge to insult someone simply because she has a vagina, which you've probably never seen and probably won't for a long time, then you're just... well I'm out of word for how useless you are.
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Given that I've never been that kind of person, you can expect that I won't start being insulting and hateful any time too soon.
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But you are insulting Archem. Just not hateful.
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Profanity filters goes a long way when it comes to messages. Sure you know you just received a whole pack of swears but without the specifics it's easier to just shrug off.
And of course ban mics from all competitive games where you can speak to the opposing team. (I actually don't even know why they put it in there in the first place. So plain stupid, just asking those sore losers to rage.
Just try to remember that every angry message isn't a hateful declaration. It's usually just the anger of a sore loser who was provoked. Be it from losing or getting owned.
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But you are insulting Archem. Just not hateful.
I'm not even insulting! I'm mostly just offensive content laden with humor and/or sarcasm.
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I'm not even insulting! I'm mostly just offensive content laden with humor and/or sarcasm.
This is true. And creepy, don't forget creepy
Also. Making PM's only available to buddies does a lot as well. Only messages written in public can reach other people. But people don't like a system like that. Some metaphor with feeling trapped in a dark room only able to speak with people you let into the dark room.
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To be fair a forum is a website designed specifically for discussion, so the impact of any of our threads is really questionable.
That being said, the most any individual can do is stand up for someone being harassed, and not harass themselves. It's going to be up to the big companies to make it easier for people to be banned/reported.
Honestly, I think everyone would enjoy it (men and women) if they could go on headset without having to listen to these idiots. Think about it- you could actually talk about the game.
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Well, not to be "that guy", but I'm glad that PC games aren't nearly as riddled with loudmouthed asshats. Sure, some games have bad communities, but for the most part it's safe waters.
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It's going to be up to the big companies to make it easier for people to be banned/reported.
Any ban/report system would be used and abused for trivial reasons too. I could report you for "saying inappropriate things" to me over voice chat when you did no such thing, just because I'm pissed at you for beating me.
What you're asking with this, and really with this whole topic, is to improve base human nature. Which, frankly, is ridiculous, and why I'm not taking this discussion seriously.
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Wow Sai and I think alike. Twilight zone
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We can't improve base human nature when we don't try. Yeah no. I'm not the naive type of person but people can easily change so changing how people act and such is one of the least things we can do. CHanging how they think or feel is another thing.
Been against all this and thought it was trivial. For a long time. like "Yeah grow a pair and shrug it off". (A lot situation are the "deal with it" type of situation though, especially online when owning someone.) But I've realised that it can be a lot worse than that
Cruised the city just some days ago and rode the subway, this girl was getting a hard time by two guys. And they weren't saying the most nice things to her. Well to be honest it was the kind of harassment you think only exist in movies and stuff. And people around more or less just avoided the situation all together not to get involved. It's a bit late so yeah I get that they don't want to get involved.
But I just don't like it, you don't act like that to other people and especially not in public. It's just. No respect for anyone.
Those guys kept going and the girl looked really uncomfortable so I lost my temper and shouted from my seat that there are people with decency on the train that don't want to hear that kind of stuff. Pretty sure it's the same thing everywhere else but people just mumble in agreement but don't really act afraid to get dragged in.
The guys stared at me and I stared back, They sat in silence and exchanged some looks then they left the seat and went up to me. Threatened me a bit(usual kind." Don't dare to talk to use like that?" "You got a problem?" "Good for you that there are people around or we'd kick your ***.") but I kept my cool and was like "Yeah I get it. Just cool down." . They looked back and noticed that people were staring at them and they probably realized that people did care.
Said something like "It's your lucky day. This is our stop." And then shouted some thing like "see you around hot stuff" to the girl and then left the train.
Girl looked at me relieved as the train moved on and smiled at me nervously. I simply smiled and nodded in response(Like an "You're welcome." and an old guy leaned over and said "Good that someone stands up to those rascals.". I told him "Everyone should, no one likes that" And some people mumbled in agreement, like usual.
Some stations later it was my stop and I walked out and went on with my life. A bit shaky but no big deal like that.
I would like to recommend that you do these kind of things. But I wouldn't, especially not late at night. There can be some dangerous crowds around. Those two guys could probably have kicked my *** right there and then if they wanted. But that wasn't their motive. Also, I'm a bit like daoman. Not the smallest of nerds out there so I assume that it works in my favour. Also that I'm kinda used to getting threats from teens after practising as a teacher. So yeah. Please do these things at home, but don't do it for your own safety.
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So you pissed some guys off in public and then admitted it was a dangerous and scary thing to do. I think I lost track of your point.
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From what anime did you watch that from? Sounds pretty good.
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I think it's really great you stood up to those guys, and I think most people do. I've seen lots of times where things like this have happened and no one wants to get involved. I've been on the receiving end of the harassment on the subway, too, and I can tell you it would have meant a lot if it wasn't just me telling the guy off.
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Any ban/report system would be used and abused for trivial reasons too.
My brother plays League Of Legends almost religiously. He reports HIS OWN TEAMMATES if he thinks they weren't carrying their own weight. He really hates losing. :P
And don't even get me started on what he does when he's playing Killing Floor or Call Of Duty. :x
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So you pissed some guys off in public and then admitted it was a dangerous and scary thing to do. I think I lost track of your point.
I pissed some guys off so they would leave a girl alone, because no one should have to stand that. And in a 2 against 1 situation isn't something you can easily fend off without putting yourself in danger. It is dangerous and it gets the adrenaline running because you never know what types capable of that like that will do next.
I decided to post it here because it was some sort of eye-opener for me. It's easy to just wave off all the talk about sexistic harassment when you haven't been there and seen it. I experienced it for the first time right there. When I realized that this girl wasn't part of some sort of gang where they joked around about that kind of stuff. These were just some random people deciding to "pick her up" and wouldn't take no for an answer.
I did what I thought was right but soon found myself in a situation I rather avoid. Not sure if they spotted security guards or if it was something I did or someone else did but they left and that girl hopefully didn't lose all faith in men. I didn't get assaulted or stabbed so I'm happy about it. And of course the very point where people around all agree but no one have the guts to stand up for it. Not even when I did. I think everyone on that subway tram thought those guys went over the line but they decided to ignore it.
Next morning I read about a guy getting sliced up after a bar fight in my town so it didn't exactly make me feel more proud of what I did. Which is exactly why I won't go around preaching to people that they should pick fights with every thug they see.
From what anime did you watch that from? Sounds pretty good.
Sorry if reality doesn't suit your taste.
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Next morning I read about a guy getting sliced up after a bar fight in my town so it didn't exactly make me feel more proud of what I did. Which is exactly why I won't go around preaching to people that they should pick fights with every thug they see.
Sometimes you just don't have the luxury to walk away. As I mentioned earlier I was the victim of bullying. Parents, teachers, they were all useless, if anything they made things worse. So your choices are to either keep taking it and damaging your self esteem, or start busting heads and leaving a trails of blood.
I was suspended from school for 2 weeks for using a knife on some goons. Is that a bad thing? Of course it is. But I was never bullied again, so the ends justified the means.
But again, it all depends on your situation. If you're just sitting on a train and witnessing it happen you can always just turn a blind eye and get off at the next stop. For the rest of us we have to look ourselves in the mirror every morning.