Charas-Project
Off-Topic => All of all! => Topic started by: daoman89 on May 13, 2013, 08:02:35 PM
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Ok. So I need help understanding something about damage. I know the damage formula is Attack/2 - Defense/4. So when you attack, does the damage that takes place range from 75%-125%?
Now say we tweak it. We make Physical element (weapon) 200% as the average instead of 100%. Does the range of the amount of damage you can do increase for a wider number line? I ask this because the skill Pierce ignores enemy defense, but when the character reaches a higher level, a normal attack starts to do as much as the defense ignore attack.
I think it all boils down to how the game generates the damage. Say you do 8 damage according to the formula. But with however the damage is generated, it can do between 6 - 10. Now we're doing 140 damage. Is it now 105 - 175?
I'm going to do some experimenting on this. If anybody knows just post. I'm going to assume the element increase doesn't really matter, rather it's the way the program accumulates the damage. Correct me if I'm wrong please! Thanks :D
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Well, that is an issue with most games in general. Piercing attacks really are only useful at the beginning of most games (FFX is a great example, where you have to use armor breaker against certain enemies at the beginning of the game, and regular attacks are fine on the same enemies towards the end).
If you want them to see more meaningful, you'll have to make certain enemies with absurdly high defense that requires that piercing move to defeat. Sadly, it is hard to make it obvious that you need to use such a move with the default battle system.
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Now I'm doing an experiment with an enemy with a defense of 100 and character attack (with the inclusion of the weapon) of 102. 200% physical element
So the formula should be 102-25=77. So the damage should be between 53 and 100, but the average damage is usually 65. It hasn't hit for 77 in any of the multiple times I've attacked. I wish the damn Help File would work so I can see what it says for the formula...
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Yeah, I've decided that pierce is only good for the beginnign and certain uber defensive monsters. So now I'm on the other issue lol
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Ok. With no weapon equipped and base attack at 100, the formula works as follows. 100/2 - 100/4 = x
So after crunching in numbers, the damage should be 25. Now we have variances which I've concluded to be 25 - 38 or 100% - 150%. It did not go below 25 out of the 20+ hits I did. Now I'm going to do this with a weapon that gives your base attack +2. The damage output is much different because physical element is 200%. But with the formula, the damage is less than it should be so I'm going to try something else and see what happens.
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After doing experiments with multiple weapons, i've come up with a formula that's pretty damn close. This having a physical element of 200%. So it's ((Base Attack at current level/2 - enemy def/4) x 200%+weapon attack)) = damage output 100%-150%. Higher damage has ridiculous wild damage output possibilities. I'm going to test this with 300% physical element.
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Well then... It seems like I feel really stupid. The formula is Attack (including weapon)/2 - Def/4 = damage 100%-150% and if you have physical element you multiply the damage times 3 and it varies between 100%-150%. The trial and error allowed me to see the variances, which were most important so now I know the old formula works but gained the knowledge of how the variation works. Yay
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look up a tutorial.
I found changing the damage modifier to 400%
as the default (no weakness/resistances modifiers)
Works out well.
Making a skill ignore defense works well at that 400% modifier.
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Yeah, I put it at 275% and magic based attacks at 150% so intelligence actually plays a factor. But the defense ignoring skill is a beginning skill and for it to be useful during the beginning and for higher defense based monsters through out the game is all right with me.
I also made it possible for enemy stats to go over a million HP and up to 9999 for each stat except agility which is 255 capped. Also the damage limit i changed to 99,999 and your stats can be displayed up to 9999.
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look up online.
400% is what is the threshold to fix the
str/2 def/4
calculations.
with 400%
a skill with
500 attack power will do 500 damage if ignore defense.
(not including variance or int/str modifiers)
With the default system the most it will do is
250.
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I also made it possible for enemy stats to go over a million HP and up to 9999 for each stat except agility which is 255 capped. Also the damage limit i changed to 99,999 and your stats can be displayed up to 9999.
This is what's wrong with RPGs. Higher stats and hp =/= better game.
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Imma stick with 275% so I don't have to adjust all of those monster stats haha.
And for the HP thinger, i'm not gonna go up to a million, just need it to got above 99,999. Having the stats go up to 9999 for monsters makes stat cutting ailments more effective as well along with other perks.
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I have never seen the point of having over 100k hp and a damage of 80k for some attacks. I still kinda prefer Paper marios battle system where you deal round 1-8 dmg with stuff throughout the entire game.
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Everyone prefers their own amount of damage lol. The Paper Mario low damage isn't bad, but you can't really tell if you're getting stronger with extremely low damage range. The high damage attack in my game will probably be around 2000-5000ish. Skills are what can deal 9,999+, but not like 20,000.
Also you always feel pathetic when a boss does maximum damage to you on a story progression fight. The game's letting you know this guy will destroy you at this point in time.
I never liked having the capability of maxing EVERYONE's stats. Gets rid of the characters uniqueness in a way.
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Disgaea is the only RP I liked that dealt with high numbers.
We're talking billions.
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I'm assuming you're not a final fantasy, xenoblade, tales series fan? lol
I've always liked seeing my characters grow from single digit damage to thousands. Really makes you feel like you've grown your characters. As long as you don't go all nuts on high numbers, it can be pulled off. But like I said before, the number ratio between two characters is a good way of comparing their strengths to one another.
High numbers won't work in action RPGs because it would just look really sloppy. Watching FFXIII (i know it's not an action rpg) i'd get lost with all the ridiculous numbers popping up every second. Wtf is going on!? Pokemon would fail with high numbers. Fire emblem, FF crystal chronicles, paper mario, secret of mana, chrono series, etc. Just wouldn't work out too well.
As for high numbered HP, it depends on the fight. As long as you're constantly forced to be on your toes, an endurance fight isn't so bad as those hack and spell til the boss dies after 30 min due to high health battles. High health can work, imo, if the fight is still interesting if that makes sense.
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I just hate it when some gridning removes any obstacles because your damage went from 80 per hit to 260 per hit after 5 levels grinded or something. My main problem with high stats and such.
In paper mario you can barely increase the base damage which makes enemies rewarding to fight all game through.
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Stats shouldn't be used to make characters feel unique anyways. It should be their special skills (Xenoblade is a prime example).
daoman is right though, any damage amount and any health amount can be used as long as it makes sense.
And I'm also a hater of the grinding thing. I find I do it myself unconsciously in games, which results in the rest of the game being less enjoyable due to its ease. FF13 kinda fixed this, as grinding didn't result in your characters getting any stronger beyond the cap, and battles were still hard (though often just battles of attrition).
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those extra bosses in ffxiii had millions of hp if i remember hearing correctly. i keep getting my *** kicked in ToS dawn of the new world. that hard mode seems to require some grinding.
Yeah, you want a healthy balance with strength by level up and weapons. Weapons should be the cause of a damage leap, not so much 5 levels. Leveling up should focus on all attributes while equipment focuses on individual attributes. When you level up, the fight should be slightly easier, not significantly easier. Some fights can require better strategy than stats. So instead of raising numbers, you'll have to defend and counter to get an advantage.
Also fights that force you to play with equipment sets is fun too. Ok, so i need to protect my healer from silence and this character needs to cripple defense while this one buffs up the teams defense. Bam! Go into it and see your strategy turn the tables. Higher defense stats can make defense cuts more significant. Or the monster can be resistant to physical attacks so you need to either break it, or go for a magical approach. Oh the fun of non-boring fights!
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Having to debuff a target before doing your normal thing doesn't exactly make a "non-boring fight". Not attacking you or anything, just saying.
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you wouldn't just have that 'issue' in the fight. Just an example of an enemy defense blah blah. A lot of boss fights require u to break some defense in various types of games. But i see ur point.
A lot of games have skills that cause status effects and debuffs, but I rarely use them. It's almost as if they're pointless. So being forced to develop different strategies using those types of skills makes things more fun in my opinion. Which was basically my point on the previous post. Final Fantasy is well known for useless magic and skills. Why use poison if I can just crush you with Comet or Meteor and high attack the entire game?
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Final Fantasy is well known for useless magic and skills. Why use poison if I can just crush you with Comet or Meteor and high attack the entire game?
Oh you mean, for that one boss in FFXIII that had such a strong regen that the only way to counter it was using poison?
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Never played 13, so I don't mean that lol. I meant more as in the FFs 1 through 9. Rarely used those magics. That boss sounds like a pain in the *** though. If it has 100,000 HP, then it's really like it has 1,000,000. You were probably frustrated.
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Actually it had 15,840,000hp, and recovered [(Max HP - Remaining HP) * 0.01] x 8 Hp with its regen. So how much is that? Some people might ask.
Well, let's say that you have managed to drop 5 of his 15,8m hp to 10,000,000 he will neatly enough recover 467200 each time it ticks.
And as you can see, the regen gets stronger the less hp the guy has left. When down on 1 million hp he will recover 1 million hp each time it ticks.
To make the battle more interesting, he will "change" when Hp thresholds are reached. So the moment you get him below 90% he changes form for the rest of the battle, even if he regen up his hp above that limit again. I think he did this 5 times. (90, 70, 50, 30 and 10%) Being given more attack and defence each time. Also, wait too long and he kills you by placing doom on your leader.
Besides that it can inflict itself with an invulnerability buff that clears all status problems, gives it bravery, faith, shell and protect, and renders it immune to all types of damage for some time, and also a skill that unbuffs your entire party.
Funtimes.
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Interesting, but it goes with the frustration > fun ratio. How long was the fight?
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How long was the fight?
Without poison - till you die of doom.
With poison - far too long.
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I don't remember that fight being that difficult :/
Still, FF status effects were more for the enemy to use on you, not vice versa. Status effects in general are hard to balance... they are either useless or overpowered. Even then, in most turn based rpgs status effects are more meant to limit the player options and force secondary strategies, not be used as a strategy to overcome foes. Pokemon is a great example of this: Against gym leaders/etc, they will often poison/burn/sleep you. Where as you would be wasting a turn doing that to them over just going the 1/2hitKO route. There are a select few instances when inflicting status would be preferred over dealing raw damage.
More active battle rpgs are another story though, when pseudo-status effects like knock-up and knockdown can severely limit an enemy's ability to fight back.
Incorporating status effects into games can really change up the core mechanics of things if you aren't careful. Done well can make some great stuff.
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I was recently playing .hack for the ps2, they did an awful job with status effects. At the start of nearly every battle, my characters get poisoned, paralyzed or put to sleep. I pretty much have to have 99 antidotes or whatever every time I go though a dungeon, and besides that, there's nothing I can do. In this case, status effects are just annoying.
On the note of damage. In most games I don't think it matters if you can do 9999 or 999 damage as long as the damage scales with life. I tend to prefer the 999 model because once you get up to the thousands range, the last two digits really don't matter.. IE, there really is no difference between 7411 and 7435, so I vote for the max 999 model so you have less insignificant digits.
The one exception I have is FF games. Simply because all the FF games I played when I was a kid allowed you to do up to 9999 damage. Then all of the sudden, if you worked hard and got the right skills, you could break that limit, and at the time it was SO cool.
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I like action rpgs like MMORPGS where status effects aren't a waste of time. You use them and get on hitting the enemy, reaping the benefit of the status problem in the meantime. Problem with ATB systems and turn based is just like Meis mentioned, either under or overpowered either that turn you waste is totally worth it, or you could just as well just click defend and achieve the same result.
The kind of skill I hate the most is single target stat boosts. Where the ammount increased barely make up for the mana or turn you just put into it.
Games like WoW on the other hand gave you skills that auto critted if an enemy was on fire and then removed the fire debuff. Also stuff like GW2 where the necromancer have a skill that deals more damage based on the ammount of debuffs a target have. Or to consume the debuffs on a target to heal. There are many options. But pure status problems, are like mentioned. Usually not worth it.
I'm not saying they are worthless, just that it's too difficult to balance most of the time.
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Monster Hunter has status effects done very well with the action. Poison cripples you and the monster. All status effects work both ways.
I have a fight where the boss starts off by causing Slow on your team so you can't set up for magic defense and additionally its magical attacks might cause some status effects. Then he'll mess up your strategy by increasing his magic and physical resistance. One little slip and he'll destroy you. He's the warm up fight before a more difficult one at the end of the place lol.
I test them by if I get pissed off or feel like they're too long or boring, then I'll adjust them.
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Using RPG maker 2k3 you can make status effects balanced and okay.
I made quite a few status effects that were like one turn instances and such.
Like a skill that had a 10% chance to burn off 5% of the targets maximum HP.
I made a bleed that was 2% for 5 turns.
A skill that had a 1 turn stun.
So long as the skills come with damage and have light status effects. They feel fun to use.
Or against multiple enemies skills like target all style sleeps or stuns become useful so you can wittle and target one at a time.
Also.
Disgaea is a game I though did good with status effects. Most status effects in grid based combat seem to be okay and very rewarding to use.
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I test them by if I get pissed off or feel like they're too long or boring, then I'll adjust them.
That never works for me, I just keep upping the difficulty until ordinary humans who didn't create the game gets too frustrated.
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That never works for me, I just keep upping the difficulty until ordinary humans who didn't create the game gets too frustrated.
So you're purposely trying to make the player go insane? lol
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When I was making bosses/enemies for my friend. I wasn't satisfied on bosses unless he was absolutely angry at me for making them difficult.
With my old ABS game. If I killed a boss on the first try without dying. I wasn't satisfied.
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So I should aim for the quote "**** this ****!"?
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Nahhh
ABS games need to have tough bosses because those are the fights that are unique to the game. You can't have a bunch of screen-sized monsters throughout normal gameplay after all. ABS games generally have around 5 to 10 bosses, so each one needs to be tough enough for players to see all the quality/effort put into it. If not the tough route, then you gotta take the "only vulnerable during certain times" route, and that can get boring.
ATB/TB battles, bosses just need to have ampped up difficulty, but rarely need to be tough/frustating to beat purely due to the quantity of the boss type enemies. Typical turn based games have a **** load of bosses compared to other games, thus less quality is put into each boss. As long as there are 2 or 3 bosses that are really memorable, all is good.
That's prob why Felix wasn't satisfied with his fights if he could kill them easily.
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Sounds like Pandora's Tower. Just recently got that, beat the 3rd tower.
I'm going with a simpler Golden Sun approach. I know you weren't a fan of the game overall, but it's puzzle-based mapping was amazing (the zelda side of me was fed). Final Fantasy games tended to be walk through this place, at least the older ones did. Having puzzles and such to navigate through a place adds another form of accomplishment tacked on with boss defeats. Xenoblade didn't have many puzzles, if any, but it's cutscenes and huge areas made up for that. Final Fantasy has strong stories and fun battles and awesome music. Final Fantasy IX is still in my top 5 for RPGs.
We all have different tastes in games, but I believe when designing your own game, you should make the way you want it to be as long as it's fun to you. Miyamoto does his own thing with Zelda. We want realistic graphics! Oh yeah? Wind Waker! My favorite zelda lol.
You should still listen to criticism, but yeah, you get my point.
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The worst thing about puzzle games is when you have a high rate of random encounters in the same map. It gets so annoying.
So you're purposely trying to make the player go insane? lol
No, I just try the bosses I make and go "Huh, this was easy" and then I increase the power of it and go "Yeah, now it's good". But since I'm the creator, know every weakness and the equipment that should be used - I have an advantage that normal players won't have. So challenging for me (the creator) is usually a fight for life for everyone else.
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I agree with you on that 100% cause I do the same thing.
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So I'm testing out a fight and I noticed something really strange...
I use Frost magic, it does 286, then monster uses flame breath which causes cripple to the team (Halves defense) and then I use Frost again and it does 160. cripple goes away, it's back up to 280+. I do not see how halving my defense should affect the damage output of a magic spell. The spell is completely intelligent based, no physical at all.
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I figured it out!!!
I think there was a mistake in the translation.
Defense is actually intelligence and intelligence is defense.
So in actuality, the half defense works if you half intelligence. I just tested all 4 things.