Charas-Project
Off-Topic => All of all! => Topic started by: Dr. Ace on July 27, 2013, 03:30:25 PM
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The British under us already know what I'm talking about, for the rest follow this link (http://www.pcgamesn.com/uk-pornwall-could-censor-gaming).
So, what is your stance against this? My honest opinion? Completely bollocks, ridiculous and what the hell man? It's just a cheap excuse to get censoring approved by playing the "what about the children?" card.
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Sounds like a load of nonsense.
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The internet without porn is just not the internet..
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Let them do what they want. The internet has already grown beyond the point of control. It'll be just like when you were younger and your parents or your school tried to block websites and channels from you that they deemed inappropriate until you inevitably find a way to get around it. All this will do is allow people the opportunity to improve their knowledge on how to bypass restrictions.
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Meh, if it makes some game designers think their character designs more closely then so be it. I mean, some of these things are just ridiculous.
Anyway, as Oooog pointed out, those who still want porn and the like will find ways to get it but the children will have a harder time doing it. Which is kinda okay since UK got like one of the youngest age of porn watching or something averaging at age 12 or such. I saw some documentary some years back about it.
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That's not the problem. There are already porn filters. This is a question about filtering it by default and not by choice. Parents that are worried about their children CAN already filter their computers and their internet. I find it ridiculous that everyone has to filter it by default, forcing people to choose not to filter, while it's a minority that actually wants it filtered, and that there are already solutions for these people if they weren't too retarded to work it out.
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Well they'll start with porn, then they'll move on to drugs, then violence, and before long, the government will have complete control over what their citizens see on the internet (aka China).
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and that there are already solutions for these people if they weren't too retarded to work it out.
Never underestimate people retardedness. Plus, having it by default means they won't have to make some exhausting efforts trying to set up filters and stuff.
Man, am I glad we don't have some of the censorship other Countries have.
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Well they'll start with porn, then they'll move on to drugs, then violence, and before long, the government will have complete control over what their citizens see on the internet (aka China).
It's already included.
(http://www.pcgamesn.com/sites/default/files/talktalk%20homesafe.png)
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It pisses me off!! David Cameron is such a ****ing moronic slimy, posh, spineless idiot, living in a bubble where he doesn't
get to see the impact of the choices he makes.
It's the equivalent of me being allergic to peanuts, so writing to the government demanding they ban everyone's
access to peanuts. If you don't like porn:
A.) Don't look at it
B.) Don't get a computer
C.) Get a porn filter
This is possibly one of the stupidest things Cameron has done since rocketing university fees. All of us hard-working teen-to-student-aged-people work hard in life, and we deserve our porn! People's computer illiteracy has caused this. People who are too stupid to even attempt to filter their own content shouldn't be allowed the internet. This is where he gets his foot in the door and starts censoring more and more. I can see where this is going!
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What I don't understand is how people in this day and age still can't figure out how to do stuff with a computer. I know plenty of people that have problems with doing the most easiest of tasks. I mean, hello, there's Google. Google it. Don't know how to filter your internet for porn? Google it! Don't know how to install software? Google it! Don't know how to do anything just ****ing Google it.
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This isn't about porn, it's about freedom and privacy, and it's bullshit. And I usually like the conservatives...
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What I don't understand is how people in this day and age still can't figure out how to do stuff with a computer. I know plenty of people that have problems with doing the most easiest of tasks. I mean, hello, there's Google. Google it. Don't know how to filter your internet for porn? Google it! Don't know how to install software? Google it! Don't know how to do anything just ****ing Google it.
Keep in mind that some people are so out of touch that they don't even know what Google is.
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Keep in mind that some people are so out of touch that they don't even know what Google is.
It's like... I can't even imagine that. Even my mum knows Google and she's very computer handicapped.
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I know it's hard to imagine, but some people have a real hard time with PC, like the ones who have millions of additional task bars because they accept anything that pops into their face, and those who don't understand that Internet doesn't only mean Internet Explorer.
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I know it's hard to imagine, but some people have a real hard time with PC, like the ones who have millions of additional task bars because they accept anything that pops into their face, and those who don't understand that Internet doesn't only mean Internet Explorer.
This.
Also, people who gets Windows 8 and can't even operate it because it's not how it used to be.
Surprising that they manage to adapt to smart phones and their OS like android or Iphone. But then again, all they know is that you can download free apps that can do neat stuff... And not realize that all of them aren't reliable.
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Lol the words they used like "bollocks" sounds so dumb. I couldn't care less about it though.
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Why the **** would you block something like suicide? This will include suicide hotline website thingies as well, and those sites are TO PREVENT SUICIDES. Or at least as much as possible.
Oh right, and gaming. Because... gaming.
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You know gaming! Video games are evil. Man, that game I just played, Bang Bang Shoot Everyone to a Bloody Pulp IV: The Bloodening, really makes me want to get a gun and shoot people.
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I'd like to try the video games that made people so violent up until the home consoles became more accessible to everyone. I bet they were insane!
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I'd like to try the video games that made people so violent up until the home consoles became more accessible to everyone. I bet they were insane!
Ever play The Oregon Trail? That **** will **** you up.
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Mortal kombat, people just started punching each other through their chest cavities.
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Ever since I started playing tetris I've become a rapist.
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I knew there was a connection with the idea of making a Tetris. Putting a long series of blocks into a hole, clever.
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I never made that connection :P But seriously, maybe people die a lot in America from gun crime because... say... I dunno... everyone has guns?
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Not to say this isn't important, but I always find it a bit odd how much action people will take to fight for things like legalizing marijuana or stopping people from censoring pornography, yet a million other injustices in any given country or part of the world are totally accepted and no one lifts a finger...
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I never made that connection :P But seriously, maybe people die a lot in America from gun crime because... say... I dunno... everyone has guns?
It won't matter if guns are legal or illegal, people will still get their hands on guns. Look at weed! I honestly don't believe you can stop gun violence, maybe cut the stats down a little, but all in all, people are still gonna shoot each other.
As for the bloodening game, i'm totally gonna play that and then kill my family because the game told me to do it!
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But at the same time, a lot of people wouldn't get guns if they have to go through illegal channels.
Also, maybe ye American peeps' need to think what is causing people to shoot eachother can't be that someone just though it would be a great way to pass the evening.
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Fun fact: American states with higher gun ownage have a lower murder by firearm.
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It won't matter if guns are legal or illegal, people will still get their hands on guns. Look at weed! I honestly don't believe you can stop gun violence, maybe cut the stats down a little, but all in all, people are still gonna shoot each other.
"It's going to happen anyways so let's just let it happen" is a stupid argument.
Hope you know that.
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It is. But let's not turn this into a gun discussion.
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"It's going to happen anyways so let's just let it happen" is a stupid argument.
Hope you know that.
Meh, let me put it this way. If you make guns illegal, A LOT of people are going to be pissed and if you don't, the same people that are already against the amendment are also going to stay upset. I didn't necessarily mean do nothing about it, but I'm saying making them illegal won't do much. The people who shouldn't have guns will still get their hands on guns, no matter what. If you live in the US, you should be well aware of how people act and react to things. You can view and read a lot of peoples anonymous hatred in comments throughout the internet. Some of the things people say are just... disgusting. Accomplishing the decrease in gun violence is extremely difficult to do. Take away the right to bear arms, be prepared for something horrible most likely.
To purps comment. People here shoot each other for the STUPIDEST reasons. Like no joke, if you look at someone the wrong way or go down the wrong street in certain areas you can get shot. People shoot each other over girls and weed, etc. There's a lot of poor people that get money and things through gun violence. So as to why we light each other up? Very very stupid reasons and reasons found all over the world. I guess we don't know how to work things out with words over here lol.
Anyways... it's beach weekend starting tomorrow!! Maybe some girl will lose her swim suit. Gotta make sure I got my beach bod ready!! Get mah tan on and check out the lovely ladies while wearing sunglasses 'cause what do we love???
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Anyways... it's beach weekend starting tomorrow!! Maybe some girl will lose her swim suit. Gotta make sure I got my beach bod ready!! Get mah tan on and check out the lovely ladies while wearing sunglasses 'cause what do we love???
Never do that again. Just no.
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Never do that again. Just no.
Second'd
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I didn't get it, aww.
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Boobies?? Is that not what you look at when you go to the beach? Or is it the fact that I am not ashamed of my body?
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Boobies?? Is that not what you look at when you go to the beach? Or is it the fact that I am not ashamed of my body?
It's that attitude.
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"I wish a girl would lose her clothes so I can look at her naked body without asking" is kind of a douchebag thing to say.
Just...think in depth about what you're going to say before you say it.
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Maaaaaaan. Okay, Dao is being a bit pervy about it, but come on: this whole white knight judgmental shtick a lot of you guys are trying to sell ain't flying and just makes y'all seem sad. You're all acting like certain people don't take the beach as a big competition about who can show skin anyway. A lot of those swimsuits are made to show off the goods almost to the point of being impractical to wear in real life and make any sort of movement at all. Things happen. He's not going to make them happen, but, if they happen, well, then they're things that happened and maybe people should have been more careful.
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I enjoy sand castles, and let me just go dust off the archives right here... let's see... Ah yes. I like turtles.
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Maaaaaaan. Okay, Dao is being a bit pervy about it, but come on: this whole white knight judgmental shtick a lot of you guys are trying to sell ain't flying and just makes y'all seem sad. You're all acting like certain people don't take the beach as a big competition about who can show skin anyway. A lot of those swimsuits are made to show off the goods almost to the point of being impractical to wear in real life and make any sort of movement at all. Things happen. He's not going to make them happen, but, if they happen, well, then they're things that happened and maybe people should have been more careful.
Where does it imply I'm being a moral white knight? It just sounded retarded how he worded it, that's my beef with it. He can stare at half-naked women all he wants, I don't care.
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Where does it imply I'm being a moral white knight? It just sounded retarded how he worded it, that's my beef with it. He can stare at half-naked women all he wants, I don't care.
What is the correct way to say that you want to go stare at half-naked women, then?
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What is the correct way to say that you want to go stare at half-naked women, then?
Something that doesn't make you sound like a giant douche.
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Something that doesn't make you sound like a giant douche.
well...good luck trying to find somebody who can pull that off
And yes, I admit, I overreacted.
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"Pull that off"
;)
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lol my bad for making u guys argue a lil bit, i was just saying. im sorry i came off as a douche, but that's the way i joke about some things haha. im honestly not one and respect women and plus i figured that type of comment suits a topic called 'pornwall' lol. i mean, doesn't that sum up perve from the start? And none of you can say that you don't check out a girl, even for a split second, when they walk by etc. It's the nature of men to look at them plus A LOT of girls wear the type of clothes that make you wanna look at them cause they want you to look at them.
And watching porn is one of the perviest things you can do so if anyone was upset about not being able to (i didnt read all the comments) then you honestly have no right to call me one when in truth 99% of straight men at the beach will check out the girls. I do apologize if I offended/upset you guys though, didn't think you'd take it so seriously.
And i'm sorry if my, let's say confidence cause i can't think of a better word, about my body and tan makes you feel bad too. I can see how it came off as me being a jerk, but it went along with my "yay beach girls!" shpeel.
But since I'm back now, it was a lot of fun drinking maddog at the beach at like midnight chilling.
EDIT PS:
I could've slept with some girl and got some btw, but i didn't because I'm not just gonna do things with a girl I don't have any feelings for. I'm honestly probably one of the nicest people you guys could ever meet. I don't like it when people are assholes (just saying, not saying any of you were here) so that's basically the only time you'll probably read something "mean" from me here. If you wanna see what a true giant douche is, come to an American beach and you'll see plenty of them lol. In fact, just come to the US in general and you'll bump into them.
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And watching porn is one of the perviest things you can do so if anyone was upset about not being able to (i didnt read all the comments) then you honestly have no right to call me one
This was the exact same thing that hit me. People seemed to react really hard on the fact that he checks out girls on the beach but think that the UK are total asshats for censoring porn. Didn't add up.
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I'd just like to point out that the U.S. isn't the only place with many douches. You just have the disadvantage of being poorly represented due to the the fact that the most vocals people are the douchiest ones. Because trust me, we do have a large amount of douches here as well.
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I think that douchiness is a worldwide phenomena, but countries (Like Sweden) who lacks export of media kinda avoids the reputation. USA on the other hand export a lot of media with douches so the rest of the world all knows that although they have douches, the USA have more.
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You guys don't get it right? It's his wording, not his words that bother me. Honestly, he sounds like he's got some disability with how he words it.
PS: Call offensive if you want, it's just how I feel when reading his post.
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PS: Call offensive if you want, it's just how I feel when reading his post.
Nah, it's not offensive. It's just your wording that bothers me. /irony
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Pornography= girls who accept payment with the knowledge that people will look at them naked on the internet
The Beach= girls who want to go swimming and probably don't want some asshat waiting for their bikini top to fall off.
Maybe you should put yourselves in a girls' shoes for once. There are simple things you take for granted.
We walk down the street in a skirt and it gets a bit windy- we see a bunch of construction guys waiting to catch a panty shot. We go to the beach, and there's some dickweed hoping for a nipple slip. We go dancing or for drinks with friends and some idiot gropes us because we "look like we want attention"...it's ****ing stupid. Do you know how uncomfortable that is? You ever think we just want to dress up for OURSELVES because we think we look good that way, not because we want to impress men? Or maybe we just want to walk down the street, or go to the beach without someone waiting for our clothes to fall off?
****ing hell.
Yeah, we pick bathing suits cause we think that particular suit looks good on us, just like you guys buy particular shirts or pants that look good on you...sometimes people have worked out and they want to show off, sometimes (and most likely) they just want to go to the beach with their friends and not look shitty doing it. And if some little **** in swimshorts and a fedora could NOT stare at us with the hopes of seeing the parts of our bodies that we choose to keep covered, that would be fantastic.
Note: The only exception is Patrick Stewart. Because it's too late. He's seen everything.
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lol it sounds like how normal people talk around here (pa) when theyre making a silly comment about the beach. u should watch jerry springer and listen to those guests talk if were goin with disabilities lol.
i used a lil slang so i guess thats wrong. part of my culture. we call our friends assholes and pieces of ****, but it means nothing. Its just how we talk and have fun. i think bonkers sounds stupid or whatever the english use over there. example: *entering the gym and seeing ur bud* give the head up movement, flip each other off then walk up shake hands and say 'whats up ***hole'. then we act normal and do our things.
nv knew some of u felt so strongly over something thats no big deal tho, but its cool. we are who we are, right? when i say something stupid or jokingly, i change up how i say it cause it ammuses me. its just what i and lots of others do. but now that we cleared that up a lil, expect some random wordings from me.
and in regards to Ceberus about douches... Our famous ppl do alot of dumb **** cuz theyr rich and think theyr more important and our media greatly brings attention to them. theres bad ppl here, but theres also good ppl here whos existence remains and will remain in the shadows. u hear about bad stuff on the news alot because, for whatever reason, it gets alot of views. what most of us want over here is no war and just to be left alone and let us start families, work to support them and try to be happy. usa is filled with millions of amazing people, its just others give us a bad name. but if some of u guys view me as a douche, go ahead, but im mostly nice to everyone here and respect the variety of opinions u guys share.
Be prepared for more retarded and stupid comments from me in the future :D
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in response to Zerlina. I dont think ur completely right about us men. Girls will nv understand how we think and the same goes the other way. Its instinctive for us to check women out, and its honestly hard to control.
Im sorry about my naked comment earlier, i wasnt being completely serious, it just went with the whole 'this topic is about pornwall, lets make a dumb comment for fun'. it was definitely taken waaaaay to seriously though lol. Most guys lift mainly because it boosts confidence, but we dont want girls to like us only for our bodies. It's hard for both genders.
From what u said, we dont like having expectations from women either. We dont like the fact that alot of girls wont even acknowledge us if were not attractive enough for them. You ladies are just as bad in that aspect as well, so ur comment goes both ways. The difference being men and women are very different from each other. We think differenty. (thats a lot of use for the word different lol) I will put myself and ur shoes more often though :)
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Pornography= girls who accept payment with the knowledge that people will look at them naked on the internet
The Beach= girls who want to go swimming and probably don't want some asshat waiting for their bikini top to fall off.
Maybe you should put yourselves in a girls' shoes for once. There are simple things you take for granted.
We walk down the street in a skirt and it gets a bit windy- we see a bunch of construction guys waiting to catch a panty shot. We go to the beach, and there's some dickweed hoping for a nipple slip. We go dancing or for drinks with friends and some idiot gropes us because we "look like we want attention"...it's ****ing stupid. Do you know how uncomfortable that is? You ever think we just want to dress up for OURSELVES because we think we look good that way, not because we want to impress men? Or maybe we just want to walk down the street, or go to the beach without someone waiting for our clothes to fall off?
****ing hell.
Yeah, we pick bathing suits cause we think that particular suit looks good on us, just like you guys buy particular shirts or pants that look good on you...sometimes people have worked out and they want to show off, sometimes (and most likely) they just want to go to the beach with their friends and not look shitty doing it. And if some little **** in swimshorts and a fedora could NOT stare at us with the hopes of seeing the parts of our bodies that we choose to keep covered, that would be fantastic.
Note: The only exception is Patrick Stewart. Because it's too late. He's seen everything.
Psht. You say that like you girls wouldn't hope for a well-packed-underwear shot if guys wearing skirt would be a normal thing.
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It's all about consent. If a guy wanted to show me his underwear it's one thing, if I'm watching him with the hope that there will be an unfortunate gust of wind, then that's another. As a side note, if some weird guy came up and was like "Want to see my underwear?" I'd probably be pretty weirded out, even if he was hot.
in response to Zerlina. I dont think ur completely right about us men. Girls will nv understand how we think and the same goes the other way. Its instinctive for us to check women out, and its honestly hard to control.
I didn't say "you men," I said "you" and men like you. I'm sure there are a lot of men on this forum who have enough self control to not slobber all over the beach, waiting to see some side boob. I really don't think you're giving yourself OR your gender enough credit when you say you can't help it. It's not "boys will be boys." If a girl doesn't want you to see her naked, she doesn't want you to see her naked, and you shouldn't try to find a seedy loophole around it. Pretty sure a lot of men would agree. It's not about checking people out...that happens...it's about actively trying to see a girl without her top when she doesn't want you to.
From what u said, we dont like having expectations from women either. We dont like the fact that alot of girls wont even acknowledge us if were not attractive enough for them. You ladies are just as bad in that aspect as well, so ur comment goes both ways. The difference being men and women are very different from each other. We think differenty. (thats a lot of use for the word different lol) I will put myself and ur shoes more often though :)
How does women not being attracted to you if you're not her type/"attractive enough" have anything to do with you trying to see a woman's boobs without her consent?
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This is why we need porn. All the creepy without all the creep.
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This topic now has my complete and undivided attention. I am intrigued. XD
Regarding what Zerlina said about consent and the beach, I'm gonna tread lightly here because this is clearly one of these touchy things that can go horribly wrong.
So let me tell you a story. Went on vacation to San Francisco once, went to the beach on a hot sunny day. For those of you who are unaware San Francisco is one of the largest openly gay cities in America, I think you can all see where this story is gonna go already. There where dudes there, lots and lots of gay dudes just straight up leering at me, one of them even tried to buy me ice cream and have small talk (i.e. tried to score a date).
The thing is that I had no problem with it because I expected something like that to happen. Consent is very much so implied in a lot of situations. Don't go to a gay beach if you're uncomfortable with gay men leering at you.
Now judging where this conversation is heading, the line in the sand (I'm being very punny :P) is the issue of personal space. Seems like the real issue at hand is the difference between simply looking from a distance and invading someone's personal space to do so.
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It's all about consent. If a guy wanted to show me his underwear it's one thing, if I'm watching him with the hope that there will be an unfortunate gust of wind, then that's another. As a side note, if some weird guy came up and was like "Want to see my underwear?" I'd probably be pretty weirded out, even if he was hot.
I didn't say "you men," I said "you" and men like you. I'm sure there are a lot of men on this forum who have enough self control to not slobber all over the beach, waiting to see some side boob. I really don't think you're giving yourself OR your gender enough credit when you say you can't help it. It's not "boys will be boys." If a girl doesn't want you to see her naked, she doesn't want you to see her naked, and you shouldn't try to find a seedy loophole around it. Pretty sure a lot of men would agree. It's not about checking people out...that happens...it's about actively trying to see a girl without her top when she doesn't want you to.
How does women not being attracted to you if you're not her type/"attractive enough" have anything to do with you trying to see a woman's boobs without her consent?
You've labeled me completely wrong, when I've explained it was joke that went with the topic title. Obviously the way I said the whole beach was me being silly by the way I said it or 'worded' it. I was also thinking of the Family Guy episode when Peter and Brian go to rehab in season 3 when Peter says "im addicted to boobies" which is why I said that.
And you're second quote wasn't just about 'seeing girls naked' but more on explaining that girls do the same thing to us guys, but in a different way. I can see this matter really gets to you though, so I am sorry for making you mad and whatnot. My plan was to say something stupid to get the heat from the guns part, but that failed lol. I understand though how you think of me that way but its cool :). Btw, 99% of men don't 'slobber' on the beach, we all mind our own business. But yes, there are those few that do what you've said, me not being one of them.
PS: I'm not mad at you for labeling me or anything, it's fine. I get why you would so there's no hard feelings from me.
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Daoman:
Of course you watch Family Guy. I'm not even going to say "I knew it" because it was obvious on your personality. Either way:
Zerlina:
Calm down girl. I can't say I can understand how you feel, I just don't. I'm not a girl, I don't have a ton of slobbering dogs waiting for my nipples to pop out (hell, if I go to the beach everyone gets them for free), but there's no reason to be pissed. I can understand what Daoman means, it's nature of a lot of men to look at pretty women. Sure, he acts like a douche 'tbut like he said, he can't help it, it's how he's been raised. But you don't have to get "pissed" (not sure if you are but that's the tone of your text) about it. It's just nature being nature. Of course your allowed to feel frustrated but it shouldn't ruin your day if you go to beach or whatnot. Remember, there are enough people that aren't like that.
Greenraven:
Honestly, I would've accepted that ice cream, **** yeah free stuff. Abuse that beach.
Purple:
Touché, you got me there.
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This is why we need porn. All the creepy without all the creep.
A for affort, but I don't think it'll be that easy to sway the topic back anymore.
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Daoman:
Of course you watch Family Guy. I'm not even going to say "I knew it" because it was obvious on your personality. Either way:
Yoo!! I have tons of posters of my favorite show, all the dvds etc. Seth (the creator) is a funny bro. I'm mad tho that I haven't seen 'Ted' yet cause i heard that was pretty good. Mark Walberg is a good actor, he was cool in "Four Brothers" too. That dude is jacked as hell. Fun fact though since I've brought him up... in da movie "The Lovely Bones" that was my middle school, they just changed da name for da movie.
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My friend that I went with was ashamed to take off his shirt at the beach though...
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It's all about consent. If a guy wanted to show me his underwear it's one thing, if I'm watching him with the hope that there will be an unfortunate gust of wind, then that's another. As a side note, if some weird guy came up and was like "Want to see my underwear?" I'd probably be pretty weirded out, even if he was hot.
That's you, though. Although I'd be weirded out as well if a girl asked me if I wanted to see her panties, even if she was hot. I'd find this quite suspicious...
Seems more common for men to hope for wardrobe malfunction, but that's merely because guys tend to be more obvious about it, whereas girls tend to be hypocrite. Girls also have two parts that can "malfunction", increasing the chance of an occurrence.
Yoo!! I have tons of posters of my favorite show, all the dvds etc. Seth (the creator) is a funny bro. I'm mad tho that I haven't seen 'Ted' yet cause i heard that was pretty good. Mark Walberg is a good actor, he was cool in "Four Brothers" too. That dude is jacked as hell. Fun fact though since I've brought him up... in da movie "The Lovely Bones" that was my middle school, they just changed da name for da movie.
I somehow feel like it wasn't meant as a compliment, nor anything good.
But anyway, any news about that porn wall thing?
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This is why we need porn. All the creepy without all the creep.
This. This is an awesome phrase.
Zerlina:
Calm down girl. I can't say I can understand how you feel, I just don't. I'm not a girl, I don't have a ton of slobbering dogs waiting for my nipples to pop out (hell, if I go to the beach everyone gets them for free), but there's no reason to be pissed. I can understand what Daoman means, it's nature of a lot of men to look at pretty women. Sure, he acts like a douche 'tbut like he said, he can't help it, it's how he's been raised. But you don't have to get "pissed" (not sure if you are but that's the tone of your text) about it. It's just nature being nature. Of course your allowed to feel frustrated but it shouldn't ruin your day if you go to beach or whatnot. Remember, there are enough people that aren't like that.
Thanks but I have a right to get pissed off when I feel pissed off. And a guy saying that he goes to the beach to actively try to see girls' naked when they don't want him to pisses me off.
This topic now has my complete and undivided attention. I am intrigued. XD
Regarding what Zerlina said about consent and the beach, I'm gonna tread lightly here because this is clearly one of these touchy things that can go horribly wrong.
So let me tell you a story. Went on vacation to San Francisco once, went to the beach on a hot sunny day. For those of you who are unaware San Francisco is one of the largest openly gay cities in America, I think you can all see where this story is gonna go already. There where dudes there, lots and lots of gay dudes just straight up leering at me, one of them even tried to buy me ice cream and have small talk (i.e. tried to score a date).
The thing is that I had no problem with it because I expected something like that to happen. Consent is very much so implied in a lot of situations. Don't go to a gay beach if you're uncomfortable with gay men leering at you.
Now judging where this conversation is heading, the line in the sand (I'm being very punny :P) is the issue of personal space. Seems like the real issue at hand is the difference between simply looking from a distance and invading someone's personal space to do so.
I think you're on the right track but let's put this in perspective. You go to a gay beach and there are men who hit on you there and leer at you, so if you don't want that to happen you don't go to the gay beach. Now imagine this situation applied to not only gay beaches but regular beaches, the mall, the street, the subway, the walk home from work at night, trips to the grocery store, the coffee shop, the pub, any time you walked past a construction site, going to the gym etc. And imagine all these guys are stronger than you and taller than you. That many have no respect for your body and will yell demeaning things out of cars at you, or while you walk by. Really think about it.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to see breasts, or even hoping something happens because that's your instinct. TRYING to see women naked when they don't want you to is the issue. It's a difference between what you want to do, and what you DO do.
Think y'all should read this, it might help put things in perspective though it certainly can't capture what it feels like in its entirety: http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2012/08/can-i-buy-you-a-coffee/ (http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2012/08/can-i-buy-you-a-coffee/)
As a side note, I brought up this topic with some people IRL. Oddly enough, all the men agree with you guys (including my boyfriend) that it's okay to do this sort of thing at the beach. All the girls were really weirded out by the idea and thought it was quasi-rapey.
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Prettiness is such a curse, isn't it?
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I understand why you're pissed Zerlina, but I don't think Daoman (or anyone here) was trying to see women naked when they didn't want to be seen. Daoman just made a bad joke in a thread about porn.
All in all, I believe that people should wear appropriate clothing for how much they want their body exposed, and we shouldn't 'try' to see more. **** does happen though and there are wardrobe malfunctions. I've accidentally (and unfortunately) seen half of my friends naked and some have seen me naked. The human body is a body, we all have one, and we shouldn't be ashamed or embarrassed if someone happens to see yours. On the flip side, shame to anyone who actively makes someone uncomfortable by gawking, leering, etc.
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Yeah, the internet totally doesn't have problems sympathizing with women over all these creep issues, doesn't it?
ed: Before you take me too seriously, that was somewhat of a joke, somewhat not.
This thread doesn't even come CLOSE to the internet's women problems.
Hyperbole!
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There is nothing wrong with wanting to see breasts, or even hoping something happens because that's your instinct. TRYING to see women naked when they don't want you to is the issue. It's a difference between what you want to do, and what you DO do.
I kinda feel like that was mildly shoehorned in. This is becoming one of those situations where things are being scrutinized and a lot is being read between the lines. It's been a few days since I read the whole topic but I don't recall anyone mentioning actually going out of their way to undress women.
And imagine all these guys are stronger than you and taller than you. That many have no respect for your body and will yell demeaning things out of cars at you, or while you walk by. Really think about it.
I'll up the ante on this on, I was molested as a child and I also have a friend that was raped a few years back. Just thought I'd put that out there...
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What wait? How am I being a dick? O_O
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Misogyny it is now? The bloody hell crawled up your ***, Lucas? I don't see misogyny, I see different opinions. Calm down for fucks sake.
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What wait? How am I being a dick? O_O
The way you're being a dick is by exploiting childhood trauma and a "friend" of your's personal experiences to try to win an argument on the fucking internet.
You fuck.
I'm done here.
I really can say that after all this, I don't want to come back.
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The way you're being a dick is by exploiting childhood trauma and a "friend" of your's personal experiences to try to win an argument on the fucking internet.
You fuck.
What?
Ok, first off this isn't an argument and no one's trying to "win". I was merely trying to say that I understand that sort of mindset. People are getting way too hostile way too quickly for no reason at all.
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What?
Ok, first off this isn't an argument and no one's trying to "win". I was merely trying to say that I understand that sort of mindset. People are getting way too hostile way too quickly for no reason at all.
Is it too late to say "Welcome to Charas!"? The place where 6 year old members get banned because two other members are harmlessly trolling?
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You guys.
:I
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Oh snap, Archem got his serious face on.
Also, why don't I have mod powers here?
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That escalated quickly.
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Lucas never responded to my question, nor did he respond to my PM. I'm starting to think there's something else going on here... :\
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You don't? You're supposed to.
Oh right, I have some powers and stuff. Good to know.
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I understand why you're pissed Zerlina, but I don't think Daoman (or anyone here) was trying to see women naked when they didn't want to be seen. Daoman just made a bad joke in a thread about porn.
All in all, I believe that people should wear appropriate clothing for how much they want their body exposed, and we shouldn't 'try' to see more. **** does happen though and there are wardrobe malfunctions. I've accidentally (and unfortunately) seen half of my friends naked and some have seen me naked. The human body is a body, we all have one, and we shouldn't be ashamed or embarrassed if someone happens to see yours. On the flip side, shame to anyone who actively makes someone uncomfortable by gawking, leering, etc.
Hey DB, thanks for being very rational in what you're saying. I can see how Daoman might have meant the original comment as a joke, but then he's continued to defend the idea, so I feel like it's okay to continue debating with him.
Misogyny it is now? The bloody hell crawled up your ***, Lucas? I don't see misogyny
You don't see misogyny? Really?
Look at the following:
Seems more common for men to hope for wardrobe malfunction, but that's merely because guys tend to be more obvious about it, whereas girls tend to be hypocrite.
Tell me more about what "girls" tend to do, and how much you know about an entire gender.
A LOT of girls wear the type of clothes that make you wanna look at them cause they want you to look at them.
You're right. When we dress up, we dress up for you, and not for ourselves. It's always about you.
Consent is very much so implied in a lot of situations.
No it's not.
Don't go to a gay beach if you're uncomfortable with gay men leering at you.
(So women shouldn't go to a straight beach if they don't want men leering at them? Ok, gotcha)
Prettiness is such a curse, isn't it?
Yeah you're right. I should just be thankful men want to leer at me and yell what they want to do to me out the car window while they drive by. You're right, I take for granted how great it is to be afraid every time I have to walk home alone at night, or how great it is when a strange man tries to follow me home, then calls me a bitch or a **** when I won't talk to him. Pretty girls have rejected you and have had power over you before. They've denied you something you wanted. So they shouldn't be the ones who are upset. You're the one who should be upset, because they have it so much better, they have all the power, right? So what are they complaining about? They should just shut up and look pretty and be grateful they look a way that makes men want to pay attention to them.
We dont like the fact that alot of girls wont even acknowledge us if were not attractive enough for them.
Maybe it's your attitude toward women they don't like. Or maybe you're not acknowledging the girls who would respond to you, because you don't think they're attractive enough for you.
Maybe instead of trying degrade women by saying the only reason they're not paying attention to you is because they're shallow, you should look at the subtle ways that misogyny leaks into what you say, and ask if there's a reason why some women are turned off by you.
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This thread was better when we were talking about porn.
And censorship, I guess.
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I don't feel like going through the hassle of quoting.
To Zerlina:
I'm nice to all girls (unless they're obviously being a bitch). I open doors for them and all that fun stuff and I acknowledge everyone that comes into contact with me. I wasn't necessarily talking about me, more so talking about what I've seen, heard and whatnot. I'm very observant most of the time.
I've been used by people before, but I don't let it bother me anymore. I've limited my favors towards everyone (boys and girls) now so I don't get taken advantage of. You don't really know how anyone really is on here unless you've met them in person. Maybe the jerks on here are actually nice in real life, but just act like jerks for fun, who knows? Some love to troll because they know nobody knows who they really are. We've all seen the really ignorant and racist, etc youtube comments. They say them cause they can hide. Anyways, you can view me however you want, it doesn't matter to me because only my family, friends and I know the real me and that's all that matters.
Da-Blaze:
You right. It was just a bad joke and unfortunately struck a nerve. It seemed appropriate for the topic title, but oh well, I said it.
Lucas:
My bad brotha.
Archem:
So that's how you make a straight face through text. Thanks man!
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You don't see misogyny? Really?
misogyny [mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-]
noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.
Seems more common for men to hope for wardrobe malfunction, but that's merely because guys tend to be more obvious about it, whereas girls tend to be hypocrite.
No hate, dislike or distrust of women. Poorly worded, I'd agree. Misogyny? No.
A LOT of girls wear the type of clothes that make you wanna look at them cause they want you to look at them.
Generalisation, not hate of women.
Consent is very much so implied in a lot of situations.
No it's not.
Since when does looking at someone need consent?
(So women shouldn't go to a straight beach if they don't want men leering at them? Ok, gotcha)
So men shouldn't go to a straight beach if they don't want women leering at them? Ok, gotcha.
Yeah you're right. I should just be thankful men want to leer at me and yell what they want to do to me out the car window while they drive by. You're right, I take for granted how great it is to be afraid every time I have to walk home alone at night, or how great it is when a strange man tries to follow me home, then calls me a bitch or a **** when I won't talk to him. Pretty girls have rejected you and have had power over you before. They've denied you something you wanted. So they shouldn't be the ones who are upset. You're the one who should be upset, because they have it so much better, they have all the power, right? So what are they complaining about? They should just shut up and look pretty and be grateful they look a way that makes men want to pay attention to them.
I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. Rape? Because ugly people get raped too. Attention? Ugliness comes with a price, so does prettiness.
Stop trying to find hate where there is none. I see miscommunication, poor wording and phrasing, but not hatred. If you see hatred here, I suggest you reread what's been written another time of day when you've cooled down.
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I honestly don't see the tone or direction of this topic improving, so I think I'm going to rejoin in a more active way.
Many men believe they have the right to ogle women (and I assume the opposite is true), but nobody wants to be eye candy for the world at large (well, maybe some people do, but I'm assuming you guys aren't attention whores and porn stars). In a way, people are correct to see things this way. You can't bar people from looking at you and making judgements or thoughts. Creepy as it may be, if someone looks at you with a dirty grin on their face, you can't prevent it. However, as long as they maintain their distance and don't interact with you in a way you don't want, then you have the right to do something about it. Cat calls, creepy looks, and flirting aren't illegal, and that's fine. Touching, perverted activities (stalking, peeping, etc.) are not so fine, but those are typically punishable by law, so they're actually things you can be protected against.
Daoman said something that was a bit unfiltered in its honesty. He may not have meant offense, and it probably should have been viewed as an inoffensive (though somewhat in poor taste) comment. Instead, we have a bit of a mosh pit of opposing views that have nothing to do with porn, and that's terrible. It's related in the censorship department because we're walking a fine line of things like thought censorship (reminds me of a particular piece of fiction), self censorship, and generally being politically correct. I'm not a fan of that, and I'm sure that in the end, neither are you. I think the best thing for you to do, Dao, is to apologize. You've accidentally riled up a hornet nest, and while diffusing the situation is already beyond being a realistic solution, apology might help ease tensions. Don't try too hard to explain yourself, as a slip of the tongue might make your words seem insincere (and I urge you to be sincere).
Drace is infamous for his unwavering dedication to brutal honesty, and while I respect that, it's making things a little more tense than it needs to be. I don't want you to stop, but at least focus on the more important parts instead of spreading the tension so wide.
Greenraven is playing the sympathy card (whether intentional or not), and it's a weak excuse to defend yourself when latching on to an unpopular view. You should leave that baggage at the door and speak your mind more honestly.
Zerl, I think you might be overestimating the intent of these comments. They may be a little ignorant (perhaps even chauvinisticnot misogynistic), but the intent is not to be so. It's hard to tread water in the realm of sexism, and carefully expressing views is very touchy. Everyone's different, and generalizations are typically used when making a point or saying something, and (as we should all know) individualism and generalizations do not mesh.
Fruck, cool your jets. Your stance seems to shift a little here and there, but you're frequently going all in when you agree with someone, and it's a bit too heavy-handed. Regardless of intent, you really do look like a douche lord, and as my signature explicitly states, you should NOT be a douche lord. Words can carry a lot of weight, so please choose yours more thoughtfully.
Prpl, I'm ashamed of you the most. I bought you dinner, took you to see a movie, got you that lovely necklace, and you never called. You've stolen my heart, and then you crushed it. I don't think I can ever love again.
:I
Anyway, that's a lot of text. You guys deserve a pat on the back for reading it all. Please try to dust yourselves off, shake hands, apologize, kiss, and make up. Make up sex, I hear, is the best sex. Let's try to move right back into the wonderful world of sex (particularly on the internet), and talk about why the UK wants to put an end to it (or something like that). And hey, if you don't feel like listening to my attempts to help, at least I can say I tried.
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Archem, I can agree with you on all but one thing. Daomon doesn't need to apologise for having his own opinions. Dao, just reread something before you post it, that's all it needs man.
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Greenraven is playing the sympathy card (whether intentional or not), and it's a weak excuse to defend yourself when latching on to an unpopular view. You should leave that baggage at the door and speak your mind more honestly.
For the record I'm not asking for any sympathy nor am I trying to "win" any "arguments". Zerlina told me to "think about it" and I was simply trying to say that I've done more than enough thinking. Nothing more nothing less. Then I was attacked for that without reasonable provocation.
This topic is starting to become rancid and twisted. Every word is being taken out of context and warped into something else.
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That escalated quickly.
My thought exactly.
I guess my first comment was poorly worded indeed. I'm definitely not implying that all girls are the same, and by hypocrite I simply mean that they tend to keep it to themselves rather than shout at the guy across the street that he has a nice butt. But the main point here was that men aren't the only ones who do this kind of stuff.
My second comment wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. But given the tone of this thread and all the hostilities around, I suppose I can see why you'd see it as a mockery or something, so my bad on this one I guess. Now I'm not sure if the other half of your reply to this was supposed to be aimed at me or if you were talking in general...
You clearly don't know me if you think I'm a misogynist. And while I'd say "You're free to believe what you want about me" I hate being labelled as something I am not.
If something I say sounds hostile, than chances are I worded it poorly, or I wasn't serious.
And Lucas, I doubt anyone's thinking that Zerlina's argument is invalid based on her gender, really.
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Archem, I can agree with you on all but one thing. Daomon doesn't need to apologise for having his own opinions. Dao, just reread something before you post it, that's all it needs man.
Perhaps I should have been more clear: I think it would be best if he apologizes for how his comments have affected the topic, not for speaking his mind. You are correct in that he should have thought twice about his choice of words, but when mistakes are made, we should apologize for them, even if our intentions were for the best.
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I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. Rape? Because ugly people get raped too.
I'm pretty sure the point is that men can be pigs. That women are displayed as something beautiful but most of all sexy. So people (see: men) feel that they are in the right by treating women that way.
And rape? Remember that men are the rapists. And women are the victims, pretty or ugly, 14 or 40. It doesn't matter
But every man acting like a huge chauvinistic douche, leering, groping, being creepy, pervy or touchy could one day decide to do some really bad **** because he might feel that "hey, that girl wants me to go over there and do her based on how sexy she's dressed after my 10 beers!". And that is a problem.
Other than that, Zerlina once again proved that we are pretty sloppy when it comes to wording our posts. Sometimes the comical approach isn't the best way to go when a thread have crossed the serious line. Some of us might have to rethink our values a little and others just need to preview their posts before clicking "post".
And Archem, I'm sorry I never called. There was just so much going on in my life at the moment and I just got out of a serious relationship, it was really stressful at work, my puppy died and the doctors gave me some bad test results. Then I dropped my phone and it broke and after fixing it I didn't have your number anymore. And when I finally managed to get your number again Ryan Gosling called up and asked if I wanted to come to his party and then I've just been to busy with police reports and damage control since that. Sorry.
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I think what some of you guys are not really getting is that misogyny, sexism, and chauvinism come in many forms some more subtle than others. It's not just about being a rapist or saying you hate women, just like racism isn't just about joining the KKK. It's about subtle implications in the things that you say that you don't necessarily even think about, or even the fact that the reaction to someone who is on the victim side of the traditional gender power dynamic is to tell her how she should feel and what she should take seriously as if you should know or should be the authority, despite being in the position of privilege.
I've asked several times for you to try putting yourself in a woman's shoes, reliving her experiences, and understanding why she might take offense to what's been said, but rather than even attempt that, some of you have simply gone on the defensive and told me why you don't believe that you, personally, are a misogynist. You've refused to even attempt to see how what you're saying is anything less than acceptable language about women, because it is more important to you to tell us why you are not sexist, rather than to actually show us. This is not about personally attacking you, it is about showing you how the way that you look at the world might be unintentionally sexist, and might make women uncomfortable. Telling a girl sarcastically that it must suck to be pretty when she tells you that she is regularly harassed, saying "it's just a joke, calm down, don't be so pissy" when your joke is clearly one that is clearly upsetting, or denying that there is a sexist bone in your body right after you accuse all women of being hypocrites or shallow and uninterested in acknowledging unattractive men...these are phrases and choices that show a lack of respect and understanding.
(And no, holding the door open for women doesn't mean that you aren't sexist, just like being friends with black people doesn't make you not racist).
Things like leering that you might take for granted as harmless can really affect people. This website does a really good job of explaining things, and lists leering, staring, or oggling among acts of street harassment and explains why on other pages: http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/definitions/ (http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/definitions/)
This is a really helpful quote and explains why things like comments that men may see as compliments can actually be intrusive:
“While I’ve heard the argument that street harassment is actually a compliment – you know, because we’re supposed to be flattered that strange men are screaming at us about our asses – it’s really a super-insidious form of sexism. Because not only do perfect strangers think that it’s appropriate to be sexual toward any woman they want, but street harassment is also predicated on the idea that you’re allowed to say anything to women that you want – anytime, anywhere"
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Fine. Look, I apologize if anything I said offended you. In now way was it my intention. Poor wording and unnecessary potentially offensive non-serious comment in a thread that was too hostile to begin with.
Can we all just get along, now?
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Zerl, I can relate to a certain degree. While I can't say I understand how it is to be a woman who has to deal with unwanted sexual advances or harassment, I do happen to be a fat, hispanic nerd. Growing up (and even as an adult), these three things were all topics that would affect me deeply, especially when used against me. Kids in school are cruel, and they have no remorse for what they say and do, so I had a very hard time with these three subjects individually. Combined, they're extra-nasty. Now, as time marches forward, the nerd thing has sort of turned into a semi-empowering thing (though the idea of self-proclaimed nerds who are mostly in it for the sudden surge in nerd as a fashion statement pisses me off, mostly because I had to live through the years when it wasn't accepted), and I do a decent job of covering up the hispanic thing (not that I really need to, since racism is starting to thin out). Fat, however, is always a problem. It kills confidence, increases awkwardness, and is still easy to make fun of. I'm not quite the victim I once was (and after conquering my issues with depression, it's not as easy for someone to negatively affect me), I can say that, in a way, I've been there. It's not easy having the world treat you differently for simply being something. It's beyond anyone's control, and it's going to be there for a very long time. I don't want to say that there's any way to deal with it, because there really isn't.
I don't quite know where I'm going with this. I guess I just want to say that I know that feeling, even if I don't know the scenario. I guess I have more to say, but I can't think of a way to say it without sounding preachy or tainting what I'm trying to say, so it's kind of staying put where it is (in my head).
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Prpl:
Rape of men exists as well.
Zerlina:
Fine, act upon your misandry all you want. You're clearly blinded with anger. I'm out.
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This is not about personally attacking you,
Maybe that's how you see it...
This is particular true for you, Greenraven. I don't care what you've been through, NOTHING should EVER give you the free pass to be a dick to others or to pretend that their struggles are lesser than yours.
The way you're being a dick is by exploiting childhood trauma and a "friend" of your's personal experiences to try to win an argument on the fucking internet.
You fuck.
...that seemed awfully personal to me.
Oh and thanks for unfriending me, both of you, real mature.
The atmosphere in this topic is becoming dangerously toxic.
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Can we all just get along, now?
This.
Zerlina, you are completely right. Sadly as guys, it is not easy for us to put ourselves in your shoes because the issues you face are so different than the issue we face. While I can't speak for everyone, I'm sure most of us have a great deal of respect for you, even if we expressed it poorly. I highly respect you for standing firm to you beliefs.
I like to think of Charas as one of the few places left on the internet that is civilized enough to have these discussions without breaking out into another flame war. There aren't many of us left, so let's stick together.
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You wanna talk about growing up? How about you do some of that yourself. You're an admin, start acting like one, it's your job to reply to people's PMs as long as it's within reason. Was I yelling at you? Did I call you rude names? No. You called me a dick and I politely asked you to explain yourself. It's a little thing called manners, kinda important for an admin to have.
And how often did I sent you them? Let me quickly check... I sent you a total of 3 PMs, one at 5, one at 6, and one at 9. Yes, I was clearly bombarding you with them.
And for the love of god stop thinking that everything with Zerlina's name attached to it is meant to be insulting to her. You're obsessed with this weird notion that everything that's being said her way is offensive. What kind of twisted mentality are you in right now? You're raging hate at an alarming rate that's totally uncalled for what this situation is.
I don't know what bizarre grudge you have against me, but I suggest you get off your morally righteous condescending high horse. I'm being polite so far.
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This.
Zerlina, you are completely right. Sadly as guys, it is not easy for us to put ourselves in your shoes because the issues you face are so different than the issue we face. While I can't speak for everyone, I'm sure most of us have a great deal of respect for you, even if we expressed it poorly. I highly respect you for standing firm to you beliefs.
I like to think of Charas as one of the few places left on the internet that is civilized enough to have these discussions without breaking out into another flame war. There aren't many of us left, so let's stick together.
Thanks DB.
And I think for the most part we are still a civilized community (albeit a very small civilization now). And I really do think most of the members here are pretty upstanding and respectful. I think for a couple members it just might be hard to hear that their worldview might not be as PC as they think, which is understandable.
Fine, act upon your misandry all you want. You're clearly blinded with anger. I'm out.
I'm so blinded with anger I can't argue properly. I am so angry, and hysterical and irrational. How could I hope to argue with you when logic eludes me due to my emotions? Wait a second...
Prpl:
Rape of men exists as well.
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi)
Zerlina:
Fine, act upon your misandry all you want. You're clearly blinded with anger. I'm out.
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks#Circumstantial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks#Circumstantial)
No hate, dislike or distrust of women. Poorly worded, I'd agree. Misogyny? No.
Generalisation, not hate of women.
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29)
Wikipedia: "Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny)
Since when does looking at someone need consent?
"Invasion of Space
This type of sexual violence is perpetrated by violating a person's sense of safety in a sexual context. This may include: jokes/cat calls, obscene phone calls, leering at a sexual body part, "accidentally" rubbing up against someone, and voyeurism."
source: https://www.altoona.psu.edu/sexualassault/ (https://www.altoona.psu.edu/sexualassault/)
So men shouldn't go to a straight beach if they don't want women leering at them? Ok, gotcha.
Fallacy, Appeal to Equality: "where an assertion is deemed true or false based on an assumed pretense of equality."
source: http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/b-list-fallacies (http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/b-list-fallacies)
And because of the above-
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy)
Rape? Because ugly people get raped too.
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi)
Attention? Ugliness comes with a price, so does prettiness.
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9)
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy)
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi)
Stop trying to find hate where there is none.
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks)
Fallacy: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well)
I see miscommunication, poor wording and phrasing, but not hatred.
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy)
Fallacy: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity)
If you see hatred here, I suggest you reread what's been written another time of day when you've cooled down.
Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks)
Fallacy: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well)
Thanks for showing me how emotional and illogical I am, though!
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In closing: Can't have a semi-political topic without things taking a turn for the worst. Also in closing: This thread. It's just too far out of control, and I regret not locking it sooner. I noticed it was locked briefly earlier, but I guess whoever made that decision felt the same as me in that it could still be recovered.
LOCKED