Charas-Project
Off-Topic => All of all! => Topic started by: Zoltar on January 02, 2015, 07:19:50 PM
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Okay I need to ask you people something. How do know which gender you are? Cause I've been having weird fantasies lately about wanting to grow breasts and a vagina. Started out harmless gag fun but now? I'm actually curious about how it'd feel to be a woman. Not just dressing up and stuff but to actually live that way. My roommate say I should just RP this stuff out like he does but I only am active mostly here and stuff. Soooo should I just save up and go under the knife or maybe try ordering some cross dressing stuff? I'd like your opinion before I make any decision.
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Whoa, whoa! Slow down, Zolty! Plastic surgery isn't something that should be taken lightly. o.o; Particully not of this permanent type of nature. Firstly I, as a avid TG TF fan, once too read into this and I can tell you if you get your wang clipped? Ain't no coming back. You'll be a gal from then on. There's also the cost to consider and the fact you may, as your roomate suggests be experiencing gender envy. Probably you like TF TG webcomics like El Goonish and the Wotch? Well that's just the fun side of back forth TG. Read Misfile. It's more realistic on the subject of suddenly waking up as a girl and having to adjust your life around your new gender. There's also ramifications of physiological stuff with this. You have to consult a shrink to make sure you ready to be a woman all the time. Oh sure it seems fun for Poof TG stuff, but have you thought about all the things you enjoy as a man? Stamina, no back aches from giant boobs, not having to endure the ridicule of others? There's allot more to it than the aesthetics. ^^; If you need to TG TF in RPs? Come see me on Skype. I do all kinds and I would love to have another person who shares the joys of it. Oh one last note...If it's about having "female desires"? IE: Wanting to be the "girl" in a relationship or in bed or whatever, you should look into seeing if you not bisexual, Zolty. Cause you seem to like girls here and in our RPs. *Shrugs* I dunno, just trying to help you, Zoltar.
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Get a psych evaluation before deciding on mutilation, Jesus.
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Yeah see a psychiatrist. They aren't just for people with disorders; they can help anyone going through mental hardship.
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If there isn't a time limit, I say save the more permanent solutions for last. I agree with the others, try getting some psychiatric help first. There is no shame in asking for help, more people should. Good luck with whatever you decide, and for whatever it counts for, we have your back.
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1. Don't ask people on the internet about this kind of thing.
2. Since you did, consider our advice. I like the idea of seeing a psychiatrist. It's not a sign of being mentally ill, it's a sign of being unsure of yourself, and having someone who is trained to help you understand yourself.
3. Frank Sinatra - Fools Rush In (1960) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y25EmjCmweo#)
4. I've publicly expressed my opinions towards transgenderism. They're not exactly positive, and, like with Drace's crass wording, I feel it's more of a physical thing with no real alteration of the person underneath, making it worthless. If you're open to accepting mixed views, this one's mine: Don't do it. Until medical science finds a way to make a functioning man/woman out of a functioning woman/man, it's all just an elaborate game of dress-up that comes off as disingenuous and misleading to those around you. As long as you're physically incapable of being a real man or woman (and your 23rd chromosome pair remains unaltered), you're still the thing you were born as. Once we reach that point (you'll probably have your mind firmly made up by then), feel free to take the plunge. Feel comfortable in your own skin, if that's what it takes, but don't blatantly lie to everyone around you.
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"mutilation" wow
Aaaaaaaanyway. First of all, ignore Fish's post.
As for other people? Don't worry - there's no chance of "accidentally" getting gender surgery or hormones, because doctors, psychiatrists and laws make it almost impossible for the people who actually need them to get those in the first place.
So, for the important stuff. It might be worth asking yourself, "Would I be happier living my life as a girl? Do I feel more comfortable seeing myself as a girl than as a boy? Can I imagine me living my whole life as a woman?". If the answers are yes, then you're most likely transgender. If you feel like a woman, you are a woman, regardless of your genitals, and regardless of Archem's quasi-medieval views. What are you going to do about that? Well, that's tough. You're rather young and whether or not you'll be able to safely transition (which may or may not include hormones and surgery) or even see a gender therapist in the first place will depend on your parents. If they're the close minded type, it might be worth waiting until you're older and out of their house, otherwise, it would be a good idea to talk to them about it.
If you want, you can check out my blog (http://http://transgirladventures.tumblr.com/), and you can message me here on Charas or add me elsewhere if you have any questions or would like to just talk more about how you feel.
ps: gender identity and sexuality are two COMPLETELY different and unrelated things
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I can paint my face black and tell everyone my name is Ungaga but it doesn't make me any more African than I am now. Stop acting like opinions of Archem and I are medieval because you don't agree. And yes, I used the word mutilation because it will never look and feel like real female genitals. You can change your fenotype but it will remain a male genotype, unless they figure out a way to change your xy chromosomes into xx. And no, I'm not against transgenders, I have an open enough mind to understand that you may feel like your born in the wrong body. During the embryonic stages it is the body that sets on male or female before the brain does, and that sucks if the brain gets it wrong. I just can't agree with mutilating your own genitals to look like some hybrid because you lucked out. It sucks, deal with it.
Edit: Coming back on topic, Zoltar I do mean see a psychiatrist before jumping to rash conclusions. Gender surgery is serious and shouldn't be thought of lightly. Gender change regret is a real and serious issue even though many transgenders will ignore the fact that it exists. Talk with a transgender about this issue, sure, but talk with a professional is more adviced. Figure out yourself before you draw quick conclusions.
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I can paint my face black and tell everyone my name is Ungaga but it doesn't make me any more African than I am now.
what the **** dude
How could that strike you as something appropriate to say?
Also, "I have an open enough mind to understand, but **** them they have to deal with it." Classy.
So, anyways: Zoltar, I hope the main thing you take away from this is to go see a psychiatrist, and talk to people who maybe possibly feel the same way you do. Talking doesn't cost a thing, and if you're not trans, then oh well, at least you know that now. If you are, then you will be talking to somebody who understands you, so there's no real loss in any of these situations other than personal embarrassment.
As Ellie said, surgery tends to be the last step of a very controlled process. It's got a lot of finality, and that scares the people who don't understand it who are making the laws and talking in this thread.
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Drace is right in the end: the effects are cosmetic. If that is enough for a person to feel more like themselves or who they should be then that's great. However, its not yet possible for a 'complete transformation' to occur, and though his Ungaga analogy may seem inappropriate to you, its right on the money in a realistic sense.
Mutilation is a fine word to use as well. All it means is to have serious damage inflicted. The word itself carries no negative connotation, yet its been perceived that way. Conversion of one type of genitalia to another involves destruction and reconstruction; don't feel so insulted.
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This is a decision that will affect the rest of your life. If you are confused, then I would say hold off until you're 100% certain.
If there are others who you care about, and who care about you, you should see how they feel as well.
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Yeah, suicide from regretting getting SRS is a big cause of death for transexuals [citation needed] and shouldn't be seen as the ultimate cure.
What we need is some sort of laser we can point at people's heads to make them no longer transgendered. That would be great.
but yeah, OP, I'm sure many a dude have wondered what the ol' tits and vag combo feel like at least once in their life. Maybe you're just curious, maybe it's something more.
give it some time, talk it out on the internet, figure out if it's a phase or what.
then, therapy
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You know what's a MUCH bigger cause of suicide among trans people, especially teens? People telling them that their feelings aren't valid, that their gender identity is just a foolish attempt to trick people, that they'll never be the gender they identify as. This is a very real problem. People who hold views like Archem's and Drace's are directly responsible for so many deaths. Go read Leelah Alcorn's suicide note. Her parents (and the Christian therapists she was taken to) had the exact same view. That if you're born with a dick, you're a boy forever. And with that, they killed her.
People regretting their transition is a thing that happens in such a tiny percentage that it shouldn't even be a thing people talk about, but the media blows it up to enormous proportions (because we live in a society where being trans is seen as a horrible abomination, and what a better way to help keep things that way than to tell everyone about people who thought they were trans but weren't, especially if that's going to be a great argument in order to delegitimize what actual trans people feel?)
edit: also, jesus, it's not about the ****ing surgery. The kid is confused about who they are and you're guys are focusing on something that, as I said, they won't be able to get anyway without first meeting a fuckload of awfully gatekeeping medical criteria. The focus of the thread should be on helping them out with figuring out their gender identity, not on spewing all that garbage against trans people. Ok? Thanks.
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Yeah, suicide from regretting getting SRS is a big cause of death for transexuals [citation needed] and shouldn't be seen as the ultimate cure.
I said nothing about suicide, but yes, regret is an issue. You want citations? You get them:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2640543/Two-thirds-Britons-REGRET-having-cosmetic-surgery.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2640543/Two-thirds-Britons-REGRET-having-cosmetic-surgery.html)
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/30/1062194758846.html (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/30/1062194758846.html)
http://www.sexchangeregret.com/ (http://www.sexchangeregret.com/)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2783583/Man-10-000-treatment-woman-wants-REVERSE-sex-change-criticises-NHS-lack-psychiatric-evaluation.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2783583/Man-10-000-treatment-woman-wants-REVERSE-sex-change-criticises-NHS-lack-psychiatric-evaluation.html)
http://www.sodahead.com/living/an-ex-transwomans-story-about-regretting-sex-change/question-3689791/?link=ibaf&q=&esrc=s (http://www.sodahead.com/living/an-ex-transwomans-story-about-regretting-sex-change/question-3689791/?link=ibaf&q=&esrc=s)
To ellie-is: If you actually read what I said you would understand that I'm advising Zoltar to get a psychiatrist not to fix his trans ideas, but to understand himself whether he is trans or not. I'm not telling him to go to a Christian therapist to fix him like he's some dog to be neutered. I'm telling him to get professional help in figuring out what he feels he is. No one is telling him he can't be whatever the **** he wants to be. ****, for all I care he can believe he's Smaug the Tremendous, just get professional help before you save up your money to go to Thailand and chop of your manhood because you wonder how it would be to have a vag.
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Going under the knife is about as permanent as it gets. Not to mention the countless horror stories you hear about
cosmetic surgery going terribly wrong. It's pretty much an end-of-the-road type deal.
It's your body and your life, and you should have total and complete freedom to do what you want with it, but
at least look into all possible alternatives and pick the one which would suit you most.
Also, do you feel comfortable talking with friends or family about the matter?
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I said nothing about suicide, but yes, regret is an issue. You want citations? You get them:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2640543/Two-thirds-Britons-REGRET-having-cosmetic-surgery.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2640543/Two-thirds-Britons-REGRET-having-cosmetic-surgery.html)
This alone makes me unable to take you seriously in this matter. SRS is NOT cosmetic surgery. Plus, my point about the media blowing up these cases still stands. After all, "trans person has surgery and is very happy with the results" makes for a pretty crappy headline.
But I'm done talking about this, because as I said, all this talk is completely missing the point of the thread.
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Part of it is hormonal, part of it is cosmetic. Stop acting like touched you and blessed you with a magical change. It was surgeons who did a cosmetic operation.
Edit: Also it seems to be a trend in your posts to focus on one thing and ignore the rest. That might be the first source I post, not the last.
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People regretting their transition is a thing that happens in such a tiny percentage that it shouldn't even be a thing people talk about, but the media blows it up to enormous proportions (because we live in a society where being trans is seen as a horrible abomination, and what a better way to help keep things that way than to tell everyone about people who thought they were trans but weren't, especially if that's going to be a great argument in order to delegitimize what actual trans people feel?)
shame you left the thread, I would've loved some sources to correct what I've been understanding (and will continue to understand) to be the truth of the situation.
but: ellie is right about at least one thing: this thread is here to help poor confused Zoltar with all the resources and advice we can spare.
Zoltar, buy a dress - it won't help, but it won't hurt.
(this is a joke. unless you want a dress, then frickin' do it, bro)
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This is sort of becoming a distressingly common topic on this forum.
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People who hold views like Archem's and Drace's are directly responsible for so many deaths.
You're right. I'm a killer. I am a monster. Oh God, how terrible I am. How dare I tell someone they're born the way they are.
Also:
also, jesus, it's not about the ****ing surgery.
Soooo should I just save up and go under the knife
Just sayin'.
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SRS is NOT cosmetic surgery.
A huge portion of it is. Rhinoplasty, face-lifting, lip enhancement, facial bone reduction, blepharoplasty, breast augmentation, liposuction of the waist (body contouring), reduction thyroid chondroplasty, hair removal, voice modification surgery (laryngoplasty or shortening of the vocal cords), and skin resurfacing, which have been used in feminization, are considered cosmetic. Similarly, chin implants, nose implants, and lip reduction, which have been used to assist masculinization, are considered cosmetic. Most insurance companies will tell you this.
In a literal sense, the morphing of tissue to change from one genitalia to another is both cosmetic and mechanical surgery; appearance is prioritized over preserving function, but functionality is modified.
In my mind, if something is functioning correctly and you want it changed, then the changes become cosmetic. Now, if a male were to have an issue where every time he achieved orgasm the sperm does not properly leave the penis (I know a dude with this issue) and he had surgery to become a woman, one could argue that the surgery is more than cosmetic.
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A huge portion of it is. Rhinoplasty, face-lifting, lip enhancement, facial bone reduction, blepharoplasty, breast augmentation, liposuction of the waist (body contouring), reduction thyroid chondroplasty, hair removal, voice modification surgery (laryngoplasty or shortening of the vocal cords), and skin resurfacing, which have been used in feminization, are considered cosmetic. Similarly, chin implants, nose implants, and lip reduction, which have been used to assist masculinization, are considered cosmetic. Most insurance companies will tell you this.
None of those things are SRS. SRS refers to the genital surgery. Which, as I said, is not cosmetic. If something bothers someone to the point where they are unable to function and often consider hurting themselves or even commiting suicide due to extreme dysphoria, SRS becomes a necessary medical procedure.
And most people don't go through most of the procedures you listed.
And I just want to note that "surgery to become a woman" isn't a thing. Again, genitals and gender are unrelated. Gender is in your brain, so to speak. A male can have a vagina (either because he was born with it or because he decided to get surgery for one reason or another) and he'll still be a male if he identifies as such. Our bodies are just lumps of flesh. We're all walking brains, and what's in our brains should be the only thing that defines us.
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This is sort of becoming a distressingly common topic on this forum.
Welcome to 2015. The internet is tumblr now.
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If something bothers someone to the point where they are unable to function and often consider hurting themselves or even commiting suicide due to extreme dysphoria, SRS becomes a necessary medical procedure.
I'm sure there are just as many individuals out there that refuse to be active and/or hurt/kill themselves because society makes them feel ugly for being flat/fat/unslightly/hairy/etc. A procedure to correct those issues is equal to SRS be your own wording, and such procedures are cosmetic.
As for the brain thing.... Ellie, your brain may tell yourself you're a female. Society tells you you're a female. The internet may side with you that you are female. The doctors who worked on you tell you you're female. Your genetics say you are a male. That lump of flesh, full of DNA, says 'male'. Male and female can be changed into abstract concepts to fit certain terminology and situations, yes, but do not forget that there is a literal definition for these terms based on DNA. You're right that "surgery to become a woman" isn't a thing, because it is impossible. I was using a generalized statement.
I don't wish to prove you wrong that SRS isn't important, make you feel bad about yourself, hurt you, etc. But, and I feel others would agree with me on this, you are a bit overzealous when it comes to these kind of topics and you say things that are trying to fight a war that isn't there. Phrases like cosmetic, mutilation, psychiatrist, etc all seem to be trigger words for you placing you in a defensive stance, when really no offense or insult was behind those words. SRS is comparable to several other kinds of surgery, but since it is very important to you and the other types not so important, you feel that you must validate it. It may save a life (preventing a person from killing themselves), but it is not life-saving surgery (removing a bullet from the chest), and you don't need to be so passionate about it that you treat it as such.
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It should be pointed out that every single one of those links Drace posted as citations proving his argument are full of logical fallacies.
For one, you posted an article that talks about regretting cosmetic surgery... not at all linked to trans-issues. It doesn't even mention transgender anywhere in the article. The rest of the links are single isolated incidents of people who have SRS who shouldn't have. That's called cherry-picking. One story the guy admits to taking the psychiatric tests multiple times and eventually figuring out how to lie to get SRS when he clearly shouldn't have.
The only reputable article that proved anything, didn't prove any argument you were making. The cohort study from Sweden concluded, "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
The study never posits why that is the case only that more research into post-surgery therapy and adjustment could help alleviate the problem. In fact, it's even stated on the site that the only purpose of the study was simply to collect data. So the causes for a rise in mortality in post-SRS patients compared to their non-SRS counterparts could be wide-ranging and aren't necessarily inherent in the data. Regret? Shame? Do these suicides constitute the number of people who purposefully bypass tests or lie to get SRS? Or maybe malpractice? or are post SRS-patients more likely to be the targets of violence, harassment, or discrimination leading to suicidal tendencies or death by homicide?
Honestly, at this point, your insistence that you are only trying to speak truth and have an honest debate falls pretty hollow when the only thing of substance you've said is that comment about 'smaug the terrible', which is as abhorrently ignorant as some Christian Evangelical comparing same-sex marriage to bestiality. If this conversation makes you so uncomfortable that you're unable to participate in it without throwing insults around at people who didn't ask for your opinion, then why bother?
What about this article here?
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth)
All over the internet, I find links to this and similar articles which arrive to the same conclusion from pro- and anti-transgender sites and groups. It shows that, while patients who receive SRS are more likely to commit suicide or be murdered, causes for suicide are officially 'unknown', as in, there isn't any conclusive evidence to suggest one way or the other. Which leaves it to the realm of talking heads and academia. Anecdotal evidence is emotionally evocative, but in most cases, we'd all agree it's not very conclusive.
Which kind of speaks to a point, there's a lot of misinformation out there about trans-issues because no one is really doing any research on it. The FBI only recently started collecting data on trans-related murders and incidents, and like most data they collect, it can be heavily dependent on local Police Departments unreliable reporting practices. What I'm saying is, there's a lot of bias out there with no one fact-checking anyone else.
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Maybe we should lock this thread and let Zoltar start a new one...
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Applause to Drenrin, who took his time to write a chapter on sources I took three minutes to collect.
For one, you posted an article that talks about regretting cosmetic surgery... not at all linked to trans-issues.
See earlier arguments I and other have given. I see it as cosmetic surgery, thus it related.
single isolated incidents of people who have SRS who shouldn't have
Did you take your time to read the original post as well as mine? This is the entire reason I posted sources like these. Not because they are great proof that SRS is wrong, but because it hits close to someone's sudden decision to say, and I quote, "Soooo should I just save up and go under the knife".
The study never posits why that is the case only that more research into post-surgery therapy and adjustment could help alleviate the problem. In fact, it's even stated on the site that the only purpose of the study was simply to collect data.
True, but all in all it doesn't seem to make them any more happy than before, based on the data.
you are only trying to speak truth
Ahem. "Stop acting like opinions", "I just can't agree". I've been stating my opinions, not the absolute truth. My opinions are harsh, but well meant. He asks for advice, I gave him my advice. My advice being that he seeks psychiatric help. I've not said: "SRS is wrong because I say so." I have said scientifically proven stuff such as "You can change your fenotype but it will remain a male genotype".
smaug the terrible
I said Smaug the Tremendous.
which is as abhorrently ignorant as some Christian Evangelical comparing same-sex marriage to bestiality.
No. Feeling like you've been born in the wrong body (be a woman in a man's body, or a dragon in a man's body) is not the same ignorance as stating same-sex marriage is the same as inter-species sex. I've stated I don't care what he doubts about, I said he should get help. Don't try to rub my crude phrasing as "abhorrent ignorance alike Christian Evangelicals" when it isn't.
If this conversation makes you so uncomfortable
I'm not uncomfortable, I gave my honest opinion (get professional help).
you're unable to participate in it without throwing insults around at people who didn't ask for your opinion
1) The first insult taken was by a neutral word, namely mutilation.
2) Look at my other posts, I'm an ***hole. I throw insults at you for liking the newest Pokémon so I won't change because this is a more sensitive subject.
3) My opinion was asked. I quote: "I'd like your opinion before I make any decision."
the last three paragraphs
I agree, there should be more research done. But without it, we're going to have to look at isolated cases. Which, again, is something that is relevant to the decision Zoltar is trying to make. To save up money to go under the knife. Which, again, I advice he gets professional help for.
EDIT: To make it clear, so maybe you understand, I'm not forcing my opinions upon Zoltar. What he shouldn't do is listen to transgenders and think it's the best thing ever. What he also shouldn't do is listen to anti-SRS (myself included) and think it's an abomination. What he should do, is get professional help to figure out what he wants. All arguments aside, all opinions aside, all proof aside, he needs help of a neutral professional (preferably even more) who can help him figure out what he actually wants before making rash decisions of either side. He shouldn't do the operation because he's had a moment of doubt, and he shouldn't not do the operation because people don't agree with it. He should get professional help.
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Ellie's right that the official channels to get the hormones and such are incredibly difficult to get approved for, let alone final surgery. Having said that people often get the hormones illegally so that isn't a complete safeguard.
From what I know these feelings brew inside you most of your life and make you miserable until you can't even think of the alternative; you have to change gender. So if this is a recent thing I wouldn't act on it too hard. Maybe talk to a councillor as people said if you're really feeling weird about it.
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I admittedly skimmed a lot of posts and repeated things some people already said. Sorry it was too long a post, I guess? muh bad
I do agree, the first step is seeking professional help so Zoltar can better be informed on how to proceed forward, what the options are, and get support. Considering only roughly 20% of people who identify as Trans go through with the surgery, I find it suspicious that it has become the central focus of the topic. My point in bringing up the cosmetic article is it was specifically talking about people who regretted getting cosmetic surgery for superficial reasons, such as disliking the shape of their nose, size of their boobs, etc. Whatever. It's obviously a completely different group of people as opposed to those getting SRS or hormone replacement therapy for gender identity issues and thus had relation to the topic, regardless if some transgender people get cosmetic surgery afterwards. Comparing the two as if they are one in the same is offensive and illogical. You can think SRS is cosmetic surgery all you want, I won't debate you on that because I don't think I'm gonna change your mind, but HRT is most certainly not merely cosmetic if at all.
And just because you don't like or agree with the analogy doesn't make it any less true. Homophobes also believe that they're just trying to help or it's just their opinion or just the way they were raised, yet no one's buying their excuses. It's a backhanded remark. You've given actually useful advice and then you ruin it by making an off the cuff mark about SRS being genital mutilation. And when someone calls you out on it, you claim 'just my opinion' or that 'you've been an ***hole for as long as forever so it doesn't matter'. Yes, you are being an ***hole. That is exactly the point. At least we agree that Zoltar needs guidance going forward.
Sorry for hi-jacking your thread, Zoltar. And Zuhane, I have no intentions of locking the thread just because the debate got a bit heated, unless Zoltar requests it. I think everyone on Charas is aware by now that this is a touchy subject for a lot of the members here. I don't see the point in pretending it isn't.
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Considering only roughly 20% of people who identify as Trans go through with the surgery, I find it suspicious that it has become the central focus of the topic.
Literally the central focus of the OP. That's the reason.
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I don't see the point in pretending it isn't.
Peace of mind
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Can somebody please lock this thread? I don't want to create tension and hate. :'( I'm just going to talk to Ellie in private like I should have to begin with. But thank you all for your positive opinions, those of you who gave them anyways.
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Tension? Sure. Hate? Not likely. We're basically a family here, and even though we can have heated debates over controversial topics, we're all still close in the end. Still, in compliance with your wishes, this thread is hereby LOCKED.