Grinding vs Taking Advantage of the System

[Meiscool]

Ever play a game where the only way to beat certain bosses was to grind? Ever played a game where the systems in play made levels obsolete? Posts your opinions of these things here.

One of my favorite games is white knight chronicles. Now, let me say, I hate the fact that wkc is a pure grind fest. Everything is dependent on your character levels. Why? Because you have to be certain levels to use equipment. This basically means that grinding that extra level can mean the difference between a boss raping you, and you raping a boss. This is made all the more grindy when you realize that you need 20+ of a 1% drop to max out your armor's stats, and blah blah blah. Still, I love that it is such a casual online game.

Another of my favorite games would be Darkcloud 2. In regards to DC2, you characters do not have levels. Instead, the weapons they have are leveled up. You could grind a certain weapon, but weapons can get outclassed fast in that game. It becomes less of a grind, and more of a "level this weapon for awhile, toss it, level the new one". However, there are no systems in the game to take advantage of. I would say that this game goes into the middle: A game where levels don't really make too much of a difference, no grinding required (nor is it really even helpful), and no systems to exploit the game.

Lastly, is Valkyrie Profile 2. Let me just say that this game is broken due to its systems. First off, enemies can be kited ad-infinite, so the battle system is already broken. What makes this worse is that the game is pseudo-turn based, so never letting an enemy have their turn results in easy (though time consuming) wins. Second to this is the fact that equipment can be used at any level (and equipment > personal stats), and stat enhancing items are easily available to you as soon as you get your third character (directly after the first fight). Lastly, these things called seal stones exist in the game. Seal stones grant your entire party an effect, as well as all enemies an effect. It is very possible to have seal stones that boost your attack by 600%, while lowering your enemy's defense and attack to (essentially) 0. This is a game where you can never fight a single thing and still do very well against boss fights just because you can exploit the out of battle systems to increase your character's stats rather than leveling. I like this game, because I learned very quickly that leveling matters very little (aside from unlocking attacks and spells).

Post your thoughts. Kinda a random topic, I know

[Archem]

I'm fond of the Mario & Luigi games (not just any Mario RPG) because of the battle system. Grinding and leveling are bonuses that makes winning easier, but because of the timing-influenced combat, you can win a fight if your timing and attack pattern memorizing are good enough. You won't win solely off of that, but it makes it less of a pain in the *** for the grind-haters.

For the uninitiated (assuming there are any here), your attacks often have some sort of input that affects the attack efficiency (rapidly pressing a button, timing attacks for the most payout, simply pressing a button at the right time to land a power attack, etc.), as does defending against enemy attacks (jumping over fireballs, deflecting foes with your hammer, etc.). It makes you pay more attention in a fight, makes the encounter more interesting, and makes it so that, while levels are important, they aren't the only thing that matters.

[Cerebus]

Yes, Mario and Luigi. I've only played Superstar Saga and I loved it.
The timed thing was great, indeed. Stronger attack when timed correctly or (if I recall) no or barely damage at all if timed poorly, defending and ending up unharmed afetr every combat (not that it happened because I wasn't all that great, but the possibility was there) etc.

I don't really like games where you are forced to grind, though. I like it when doing so just really help. But being forced to makes it kinda boring for me.

Can't think of any games where you can take advantage of the system, though...

[Prpl_Mage]

Good topic.

Xenoblade chronicles made it so that you get xp from doing one of million quests. Problem was that when I did all /most quests in the area I was - I usually outleveled even the monsters in the coming area. Upgrading skills on the other hand required SP and for higher levels certain books to unlock. Also there was TP which you used to learn passive boosts. Anyway. Levels made a lot of difference, mostly in this whole "evasion/block vs accuracy" formula that games like WoW have. To summarize it. If you are like 5 levels below a monster's level you'll miss like 90% of the time. If you are 5 levels above the monster they will miss you 90% of the time. So when you outleveled the monsters you barely needed a healer since noone took enough damage.

You guys already mentioned the mario rpgs, especially super star saga is a brilliant game. You can dodge attacks if your timing is right which makes it possible to beat most enemies and bosses without having to grind up 9999hp and 999defense.
Another game by our good nintendo friends is paper mario(at least the GC one) where leveling up gave you a choice of 3 things:hp which increases mario's hp by 5 or something,  FP which is basically 5 mana, BP which is you" capacity" for badges that allows you to equip bonuses of different kinds.
Beside they have a similar system like superstar saga only less dynamic. Timing the A button with an enemy attack makes you guard it and take less damage. Pressing B at just right timing makes you counter attacks.

In resonance of fate you level up your weapon skills by using them in battle, all your weapon skill levels added together makes your level. So using handguns, smgs and grenades is beneficial for all characters for the HP increase and weight.

In Valkyria chronicles you level up your classes in one go. You have the scouts, the assault, the lancers, the engineers and the snipers. Spending your earned exp on a class to level it up unlocks new abilities and stats for all characters of that class. Each character have to be used to unlock personal traits / bonuses though. This is a great thing that more tactic games should introduce. Maybe not all at once but that others of the same class gain a percentage at least.

I do like the option to grind though. There are times when playing games when you are matched up with this strong enemy / boss and there's just something that makes you hate it. And there's nothing worse than entering your menu after a game over and realizing that you've reached the level cap for the chapter and there's no shop available so you just have to keep trying until you succeed.

[Ben]

Grinding serves a well enough purpose, and if its done well,(so as to not feel like grinding) I can dig it. If I am in the mood, I can easily blow away a days worth of grinding in a game and somehow feel like I've done something.

However, If i feel like I am exploiting something within a game engine (not even a bug parse) I feel like I am way better at the game than I am. Fallout3 or The later Elderscrolls comes to mind. Bethesda is obviously not concerned about the 'bug' that lets you climb mountains my patiently jumping. And it makes me think Iam really effing sneaky. Or say Selling my "All" materia once it was at full level for a bajillion dollars in FF7...made me feel like I was exploiting something. But there is a fine line with exploits...you need to make the player feel like he has figured out something AWESOME and hasnt simply broken the game. Like when you fight a boss or some such, and discover there is just a sweet spot in a room you can sit and kill the guy off without having to move at all....that sort of thing ruins the experience for me

[Prpl_Mage]

Like when you fight a boss or some such, and discover there is just a sweet spot in a room you can sit and kill the guy off without having to move at all....that sort of thing ruins the experience for me

Ah, those bosses. Position yourself behind this pillar and all the bosses attacks will miss you. Great when you were a kid though and your fingers moved as slow as a sloth on antiseptics.

Speaking of grinding. I'm a grinding kind of guy. People around me don't get how I can spend hours doing something so monotonous like grinding or farming. I do prefer farming over grinding though. And the game that pops into my head directly is Monster hunter.
Lord knows how many times I've gathered a party online and set out to defeat the vicious lagiacrus, break his horns and then capture it in hopes of getting some Horn +. Love games that forces you to gather materials for your upgrades. People really seem to hate items that are random drop from enemies though. But the game is about murdering monsters so why not give us a good reason to do it beside some sort of Kill/death ratio? But it's nice when you can break the monster's horn to increase the chance at least, you get the feeling that you actually can affect your luck. Like you're in control.

[Meiscool]

Ah, those bosses. Position yourself behind this pillar and all the bosses attacks will miss you. Great when you were a kid though and your fingers moved as slow as a sloth on antiseptics.

Speaking of grinding. I'm a grinding kind of guy. People around me don't get how I can spend hours doing something so monotonous like grinding or farming. I do prefer farming over grinding though. And the game that pops into my head directly is Monster hunter.
Lord knows how many times I've gathered a party online and set out to defeat the vicious lagiacrus, break his horns and then capture it in hopes of getting some Horn +. Love games that forces you to gather materials for your upgrades. People really seem to hate items that are random drop from enemies though. But the game is about murdering monsters so why not give us a good reason to do it beside some sort of Kill/death ratio? But it's nice when you can break the monster's horn to increase the chance at least, you get the feeling that you actually can affect your luck. Like you're in control.

I think games like this would benefit highly from some realism... for example, if you kill a dragon, the horns/claws/whatever are always gonna be there. But why are the drops random?
It would make sense to me if you are in a party of 6, then only 2 people would get a horn (if there are two horns). I feel that would be more "in control" than random drop chances. Especially since you could try and solo the dragon if you really wanted for a guaranteed 2 horns.

[Prpl_Mage]

But damaged and broken body parts can't be used in armors. So they might have 4 claws but there's only a 10% chance that you can use one of them for equipment.
Everyone get 3 carves(loot) from the monsters and then quest rewards. Also, the dragon can be killed in singleplayer but it's impossible to beat the dragon+ online without at least a party member. Getting all the aggro on your own is an invitation to death.

Still, I like that I have to kill it like 20 times to get what I want. If I got the item the first time I wouldn't have any reasons left to kill it. That's what I'm feeling that people are forgetting these days. When games are about killing stuff you should kill stuff. Most people want to kill 1 stuff and get everything needed. But when you have everything you needed you won't kill any more stuff. Bottom line is; killing stuff is fun and I should have some sort of drive to do it.

[A Forgotten Legend]

I am godawful at grinding.  Because I never seem to do enough of it.  I get really bored from it.  This is probably why I will never finish a final fantasy game. -_-"

[aboutasoandthis]

Personally I prefer taking advantage of the system. I've ran through almost every RPG experience as if it was a low level challenge. I remember doing this the most with Final Fantasy 8. I know the enemies actually change in strength based on your level, but I managed to get all the way to Griever just by playing smartly. I can't remember exactly what I did to beat the game, but I felt I had to go back and gain some levels at that point. Something similar happened with Lost Odyssey. Got to near the end of the fourth disc with my methods.

[Grandy]

I dislike grinding in games like, say, Disgaea, Makai Kingdom, or Scott Pilgrim vs The World.

Because in those games the numbers are so broken, if you grind a little you become way too overpowered for your own good, one-shotting all but the thoughest enemies, and most strategy gets tossed out of the window.

I still love them for different reasons, though.

[Archem]

Personally I prefer taking advantage of the system. I've ran through almost every RPG experience as if it was a low level challenge. I remember doing this the most with Final Fantasy 8. I know the enemies actually change in strength based on your level, but I managed to get all the way to Griever just by playing smartly. I can't remember exactly what I did to beat the game, but I felt I had to go back and gain some levels at that point. Something similar happened with Lost Odyssey. Got to near the end of the fourth disc with my methods.

Very similar to my gameplay, only I'm not trying to do that. I always end up being incredibly under-leveled late-game. Pokémon is my best example. I always do my thing, then find I need to grind for twenty or thirty levels to beat the Elite Four.

Yes, I get to the Elite Four with level twenty-to-thirty Pokémon, and yes, I've already told this story. A few times. For a few different games. Right now, I'm working on finally beating Leaf Green. Only another ten levels per member, and I'll finally be ready.

[Moosetroop11]

I remember playing FF4 many years ago and running from the harder battles rather than training up. It got ridiculous to the point where I couldn't physically win a single battle and the dark elf guy in the magnetic cave wiped me out every single time.  At that point in the game I couldn't even go back to a place where I could train up XD

[Archem]

I played that game a few times, and all except the final time, I got stuck at the same place. It's not like I ran from battles or anything, but I still managed to be quite under-leveled. It's a curse, I swear.

[aboutasoandthis]

Very similar to my gameplay, only I'm not trying to do that. I always end up being incredibly under-leveled late-game. Pokémon is my best example. I always do my thing, then find I need to grind for twenty or thirty levels to beat the Elite Four.

Yes, I get to the Elite Four with level twenty-to-thirty Pokémon, and yes, I've already told this story. A few times. For a few different games. Right now, I'm working on finally beating Leaf Green. Only another ten levels per member, and I'll finally be ready.

Strangely Pokemon is the only game where I don't mind grinding for the Elite Four. I think it's because you can easily travel the world at that point, via Fly, Surf, or otherwise. You can plan how you're going to train. In a lot of other RPGs, it's feels like you're stuck in one place if you don't spend the extra time backtracking. I guess that having that freedom of movement in the game's world makes it easier for me.