Request: Automatic Map Tile Tutorial

[Kilyle]

Okay, so I get the idea of the automatic map tiles found in the first area of a chipset.  Thing is, obviously I don't get ALL of this idea, or I wouldn't have the problem I'm having.

I want to make different sets of ground--for example, grass, dirt, and snow.  Then I want to put certain things on top of them.  Grass can have tall grass, trees, mountains, and swamp.  Dirt can have patchy grass, dead trees, and mountains (or cliffs).  Snow can have clumpy snow grass, snowy trees, and snowy hills.  And, yeah, I know I'm going to have to edit one or more of these out, because there's only twelve total allowed.  But anyway.

I want it to all look seamless, of course, the way that you can go from grass to snow to snowy forest to snowy mountains using the main chipset.  And I thought I understood how to do that, but the way I made my chipsets still puts a flat border between dirt and grass.  The dirt things blend together--at least, visually, though maybe they're not properly blending in the behind-the-scenes stuff, which may actually matter at some point--so I have grass, trees, and mountains that fit fine on top of dirt.  But I can't get the dirt to join the grass, and I haven't the first clue how to start doing that.  Hence the request.

I'm attaching the simple form of my chipset to show you what I did.  Please tell me how to get what I want!

[Kilyle]

Now, if I go ahead and do the the thing that makes the dirt fit with the GRASS, I end up getting grass edges between the dirt and the water, even when I put dirt edges on the water itself.  I quasi-understand why the program is doing this.  What I want to understand is how to stop this.  Or a different way to put the autotiles together so that they don't think they need to be bordered in grass.  I want to be able to go up flush against the water with either grass or dirt, and not have any of the other tile show up on the border.

I did notice that I can partially solve the problem by putting an extra dirt panel in the non-autotiles, but I think this is a Band-Aid when I need surgery.  Not to mention, it plays well with the trees and mountains and grass but not with the dirt itself--which still puts up a defensive line of grass.  And that's a major problem for my maps.

Here's the other chipset (just noticed that I messed up the mountain grass patch... sorry 'bout that):

[aboutasoandthis]

It sounds like you haven't mastered the shift button yet.

I don't really know how to explain it. I think Meiscool managed to explain it in one of his mapping tuts.

You can also comepletely copy/paste a set of tiles just as you see it. When you hold down the right mouse button, hold shift at the same time without releasing it.

This is what I've managed to get from your chipsets.

The First


The Second


Forgive the little mistake in the top screenshot in the upper right-hand corner. You're also missing a way to blend the dirt with the grass too. That's why I used the cliff edges.

However in the second, only the trees look like they blend. Is that what you wanted?

If you need any more help, I'll see what I can do.

[Kilyle]

A. Shift button

Not sure what you mean.  I can hold down the right mouse button, grab a bunch of tiles, and use that set of tiles like a brush.  I've never needed the shift for this.  Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about.

B. Your maps

Heh, they look nice!  It's only when I zoom in--to 4x, about the same size as the game would be onscreen--that I notice the problems.  I do see that on the first, you've got the tall grass working together, as a bridge between the short grass and the dirt, which looks great.  I object to the use of cliff edges to join grass to dirt, though.  I may eventually bow to that, but honestly, I think there has to be a better way to do it than to use "cheats" like that.  Also, using cliff edges has its limitations--since the autotiles take care of mixed tiles that the cliff edges can't deal with.

On the second map, I'm surprised yet pleased that the two deserts are playing so nicely together--except at two little spots where the grass and dirt don't join well.  Same with the swamp.  Same with the trees.  They look great.  The mountains have the most obvious problems, but then, I wasn't really looking to blend dirt mountains with grass mountains... although I might want to at some point, so getting that fixed would be a good move.

You're also missing a way to blend the dirt with the grass too.

I know that I can't get the dirt to blend well with the grass.  And when I get the dirt and grass to play nicely, one or the other doesn't want to play nicely with the water.  That was, in effect, the entire reason for my post.

[aboutasoandthis]

When I said use the shift key, I meant the actual button on the keyboard. It's under Caps Lock on the left side, and under the Enter button on the right side. I would've been confused too I guess.

I will say this. You have two different types of grass in your first chipset, as well as the dirt. With your first chipset, you  literally are missing a way to blend the bright-green grass, and the dirt. That is why I used the cliffs instead.

While actually drawing your map, experiment while holding the shift button on your keyboard.

Unfortunately, I don't have RPG Maker right now, so I can't help you much anymore. This is all I can say for now.

[Kilyle]

I know what the shift key is.  I knew that you were referring to using the shift key (in such phrases as "hold shift at the same time").  However, I have never encountered the shift button technique before, and related your phrase ("You can also completely copy/paste a set of tiles just as you see it") to a technique I did know, which is obviously the wrong one.

I did finally toy around with the technique.  It appears to bypass the program's ability to blend tiles.  I can't see any reason to bypass this feature.  To me, it just looks very odd.  Can you possibly direct me to that tutorial that talks about the technique, so I can learn more about it?

You have two different types of grass in your first chipset, as well as the dirt. With your first chipset, you  literally are missing a way to blend the bright-green grass, and the dirt. That is why I used the cliffs instead.

Why are you under the impression that I am taking your advice figuratively?

I know that I am missing a way to join the short grass and the dirt in the first chipset.  The only way I know to join them is the way in the second chipset.  The way that I do join them in the second chipset means that the dirt no longer allows itself to go flush out to the water--even if I use the dirt-edged water.  The water realizes that it's next to something and forms a dirt edge; the dirt realizes that it's next to something and forms a grass edge.

I went and reversed the problem, which serves me better but has me no closer to a solution.  Now the dirt is the base and the grass is edged by dirt.  When I put the dirt-edged grass next to the water, the grass does not go out to the water, but forms a protective barrier of dirt.  Here is a screenshot of the problem, and a comparable shot of the desert, which is allowing grass to go out all the way to the water:

[Kilyle]

Here is the reversed chipset, with the dirt as the base and the grass edged by dirt.  It has the same problem, only in reverse.  I want to be able to choose between both autotiles (grass and dirt), making both the dirt and the grass go out to the water, without getting an extra layer between them.  When I have dirt, I don't want grass growing along the edge of the water.  When I have grass, I don't want the grass to stop growing next to the water.  I want to be able to use autotiles for this, and not "cheat" by using cliff tiles.

If you don't know how to help me, then thank you for trying, and I'll hope that someone else comes along who can help me.

[Kilyle]

Here's an even better shot of the problem.  Notice how the dirt goes out flush with the water, and the desert has a grass border that goes out flush with the water, but the grass in the center has a dirt border:

[Kilyle]

...and the original problem:

[Kilyle]

...and the problem if I sacrifice joining in favor of getting two water edges:

[SaiKar]

I'm not sure what you're looking for at this point. You have clearly already gone pretty in-depth with the maker's limiations when creating borders to know the possibilities you have open and their downsides. Copy/paste and shift key are useful techniques that can help minimize the problem but it won't ever be perfect.

If you have a set number of borders you know about (like dirt on the left, desert on the right) you could create normal lower level single tiles of that particular border, then plop them down where they should go using shift. Though that will quickly eat up your limited number of lower level tiles and leave you with less room for drawing other things.

... if you didn't understand that, say so, and Ill whip up a mock-up or something.

[Kilyle]

Hey, if the answer is "You can't have what you want due to the limitations of the program," I'll accept that and work around it.  I was hoping that I was overlooking something, but if there's no way to do it, then there's no way to do it.  And I can easily whip up something to fudge over any pieces I need to fudge.

Still, if anyone has any further advice, I'd be glad to hear it.

[Ben]

I do. Use XP. Autotiles are less limited.

[SaiKar]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. And yeah the program is limited, but I thought of two ways to work around it a little.



The first green circle solution is to have both grass and dirt borders around the desert, so you can make dirt/desert transitions along with the normal grass/dirt and grass/desert ones. Obviously this takes up some other terrain type, but if you're not using it, it works.

The second green circle solution is to make normal tiles for the borders. I just ripped that one right out of your modified dirt chip. Very limited in  use, but if you know you're only going to have a few borders and which side which terrain will be on, it works.



Top example uses the first method, bottom example uses the second. Both used excessive amounts of copy/paste to clean up the edges, but the end result is pretty good.


The chip without the circles, if you want it. But I'm sure you can make a better one.

[Kilyle]

I didn't think you were being a jerk.  I half expected to be told my desire wasn't workable, but I was hoping maybe I had overlooked something.

I like your idea.  Will it work as well for the water?  I'm far more concerned with how the grass and dirt touch the water than how they touch the desert.  I suppose I'll find out when I experiment a bit.  Thank you very much for your idea; I'll get on it!