Avoiding Cliches, and Why You Shouldn't

[Bluhman]

'Cause he believes that everybody hates him, or something.

[Roland_Deschain]

Originally posted by Osmose
Getting caught up in old ideas is not a big thing holding people back. (The community he refers to isn't Charas, though.)

So you have a story with four heros and some crystals. OMG CLICHE. Well, what if those crystals are fueled by evil energy? What if, as the game goes on, more and more people appear to be doing evil, and the heroes stop them, going on and on until they realize that what they see as reality is only an illusion put forth by the crystals, and all that time they've been terrorizing normal townsfolk?

The fact of the matter is, most people enjoy cliches when they're executed well. Morrowind and Oblivion can both be cut down into the cliche of a nameless soldier fulfilling a prophecy. And yet, because of the depth of the gameplay and lore, they still succeed. FF12 is cliche - a princess fights to win back her kingdom. FF10 - a tradition of summoners is broken in order to end a timeless cycle. Tales of Symphonia did that same cliche(Only instead of summoners it was the Chosen) better. Every single Castlevania game is about taking down Dracula (Except for, like, one or two). But they all expand upon that or execute it so well. Pokemon rarely ever gives a good reason as to why the main character feels like being the Pokemon Master, so why do we ask RPG Maker games for great detail before we've even played the game?

And, while we're on the subject, none of these games gave a huge amount of info beyond screenshots and cinematics before release, and yet you guys require screens, demos, detailed intros, etc. for fan made stuff. That's way too high of a standard. And it's not even a common standard! Outpost's story was given: "There was a war and these guys are outcasts starting a new colony. Fun!" AND NO ONE SAID A GOD DAMNED THING.

We as a community need to realize that until we lower the bar a bit, we're not going to see a good amount of games. We're not OCRemix - we don't need perfection.

While I understand what you and the article are saying, the cliches mentioned in a few lists, including my own, are usually not too bad, but when a game other than a fangame draws heavily from one source or the plot is predictable ("Wow, so Main Villain is Hero's father. I sure didn't see THAT coming... ) then some cleaning up is needed. I'm not overly adverse to cliches, my suggestions usually involve changing the norm to better suit your personal style, like Moose says here. Actually, the game example mentioned doesn't sound that bad......
~Deschain

[Osmose]

Originally posted by aboutasoandthis
You talk like Charas is still dying though. I'm pretty sure eight new games have sprung up in the Game Section. There's now Bluhman's brilliant game waiting to be downloaded. Linkforce is still working on his game, Saikar's game luckily wasn't deleted, and I can name a few others who are working on projects now. Why the sad tone?  

Can't help it. It's my natural tone when trying to make a point.

[Phayre]

Essentially, going up to somebody and saying "Your idea is more cliche than mine, you suck" is intensely snobby. And yeah, we've all done it. Although everything needs at least something fresh to make it worth bothering with, everything is, at its root, cliche.
Like people have said, cliches are good. But like they've also said, if somebody wanted a simple game with nothing but a silly hero man, a princess, and a bunch of crystals to find, they'd want to play the originator of the concept, not some RM game with no new variations on the story.

[Dragonium]

You must remember that as soon as an idea, however broad, has been used just once, it becomes clichéd. You could magically come up with an idea that is not at all clichéd, even though the odds are against it, and use that in your game. However, if someone else uses the same idea, their game is clichéd.

This is why there is always an infinite number of clichés which people can accuse a game of.

Also, we really need more games. We're one of the strongest RPG Maker sites around, yet we have a scattering of (Admittedly very good) demos, and virtually crap in the way of actual games.

People try to make their games too epic. That's the main problem we face. Someone wants to make their first RPG Maker game, and they want it to be set in an enormous world and over 500 hours of gameplay. After about 2% of it is made, they get bored/run out of ideas.

Once we get more finished games, that is when Charas will pick up.

... Sorry to go off on a tangent there.

[game_maniac]

Like many people have said, there are good cliches and bad cliches.

"A very dark evil man was sealed away by many wise old man. 3 billion years later he escaped, but a prophecy says a 9-year old boy who lost his parents and a princess with healing powers will save the world".

^So, we're supposed to think the person who wrote that was a genius, simply because it's choke-full of cliches?

Good cliches are things that you simply can't avoid sometimes, or that sound better than a few original ideas.

Then there are, bad cliches, who can be avoided, and generally show the author just can't be arsed with developing his story/characters.
Examples? Villain who is evil for no reason, holier-than-thou main heroes, prophecies that ALWAYS come true, no matter how far-fetched.

[Dragonium]

Clichés can be altered, and in many cases can actually be really good.

I mean, take the example game_maniac gave of the "prophecy that applies to a 9-year old kid". In nigh on all cases, the person is completely unaware that the prophecy applies to them, or in many cases that it exists at all. It'd be pretty funky if the guy whom the prophecy applies to was well aware of the prophecy and that it applied to them, and was complacent and arrogant about it, instead of being meek and naive like most heroes are.

Bartender: You want beer, you gotta pay for it.
Guy: Hey screw you. I'm the Chosen One. One day soon some demon guy is gonna wake up and I'ma royally slaughter him. See, because I'm the Chosen One, and the Prophecy states that I'll pwn his demonic hide.
Bartender: Umm... ok.

I'm betting 50 Awesome Points that someone will post shortly afterwards telling me a game (Most likely an immensely well-known one that I've not played), where this exact thing has been used. Sigh.

[Daetyrnis]

In all honesty, some clichés are perfectly acceptable, but some are not.  For instance, having an evil whatever that vies to either take control of or utterly destroy the world is used quite often.  One should acknowledge that any protagonist should be offset with an antagonist, otherwise the story has no conflict.  Also, as along as it's pulled off, epic games can be the most enjoyable, right?  So, an epic antagonist fits perfectly.

However, there are clichés that have no need of being used again.  For example, the only way said antagonist can be defeated is by collecting eight crystals, or some such other series of mystic objects.  There are other, more creative ways to solve the conflict in a story.

Also, I'm fine with a "chosen one", as long as they are not called the Chosen One.  That word, chosen, has been overused to a brutally painful death.

It does all come down if the maker can pass it off.  As much as I love story in a game, if the game was awesome fun to play, a mediocre story wouldn't pull me away from it.  The same goes for the other way around, a superb story is wasted in a game that is boring or looks like utter feces.

[DragonBlaze]

Osmose, that example you gave of the crystals being evil is a good example of something that  isn't cliche. A cliche is something that has been used many many times, and that idea hasn't been used many many times. The moment you twist a cliche into an original idea (like you did) it becomes original, and not cliche.

If you STICK with the cliche as is, then its bad cuz its a cliche, if you modify the cliche into something original, yeah its kinda cliche, but on the other hand its original, so its not bad.

Of course every game is gonna have cliches, but as long as you turn those cliches into something original, then great, cuz there not really cliches anymore.

IF you stick with the cliche AS IS, then that same idea has been seen many times, and thats where the problem comes in. Take the hero's town burning down for example, its the start of almost every other game out there. The enemy burns the heros town down, then the hero seeks revenge, and that leads into the plot, thats a really cliche idea. The only differance in many games with this idea is the meathod, the villan, and the hero, the concept is the same. Its like, "hey, the hero's town is burning down, what a surprise!" Same with the crystal plots, sure, there are ways to make them original, however, in 99% of these games, you spend half the game trying to collect or defend, or destroy these crystals, and you know where the game is gonna go until you reach the final crystal. Cuz after you get one crystal, you KNOW you'll need to get the next. And in my opinion, if you can predict a lot of things that are gonna happen in a game, then its not a very good game.

[Dragonium]

I never understood the whole "I'm gonna destroy the world" thing. I mean it seems pointless, considering how the person doing would also die. And it also seems odd that most villains aspiring for world destruction seem perfectly sane. It's also annoying that nigh on all people who use the world destruction concept give absolutely no reason for the villain doing so.

[Daetyrnis]

Originally posted by Dragonium
I never understood the whole "I'm gonna destroy the world" thing. I mean it seems pointless, considering how the person doing would also die. And it also seems odd that most villains aspiring for world destruction seem perfectly sane. It's also annoying that nigh on all people who use the world destruction concept give absolutely no reason for the villain doing so.

Exactly why people need to be creative on how they convey somethings.  ALL antagonists need motives.  A bad-guy who wants to destroy the world " 'cause he feels like it" destroys a story's plot in my opinion.  No excuses.

[DragonBlaze]

Well in good games the destroying the world is for good reasons. Like..

***SPOILERS***

When kuja wanted to destroy everything in FF9 it was cuz he was gonna die and he wanted to take everyone down with him.

And when sepheroth wanted to destory the world it was cuz it'd basically make him a god and it was the will of jenova.

And when Kefka wanted to destory the world, he didn't really want to destory it, just take it over.

And in my future game, Seketh wants to destory the world, however seketh is just a manifest of something known as the 'plague' which has been going across the galaxy destorying everything cuz 1) thats how viruses work 2) its basically revenge and hatred 3) the plauge doesn't really 'destroy' anything, just corrupting it until it too becomes part of the plague. Err, I may have to think some of this through again.


*** End of Spoilers***

Long story short, there are many good reason for world destruction, though sometimes those ideas are hard to think of.

[Dragonium]

That's why FFX sucked. "I want to become Sin and destroy the world in order to free it from its pain". I mean what the hell. The idea is there, but it's like saying "Don't worry, I'll get rid of your headache by shooting your head off".

[aboutasoandthis]

Personally I don't like a villian who wants to cause descruction to the world period. I prefer villians who seek political power with good intentions. That's just me.

I think the evil overlord idea comes from who you, the creator, wants as the Final Boss. It's hard to come up with one who isn't pure-evil yet who doesn't come out of nowhere (IX'S NECRON HINT HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Luckily, I've managed to come up with one.

[Razor]

Originally posted by aboutasoandthis
Personally I don't like a villian who wants to cause descruction to the world period. I prefer villians who seek political power with good intentions. That's just me.

Quick, we gotta stop Senator Walton before he proposes his new children's hospital idea!