Lets talk politics, get mad, and bitch and moan.

[Grandy]

Congress?

I'd throw a beehive full with bees at the congress.

[HackersTotalMassLaser]

ANd here I thought this was a serious thread.

[fruckert]

So, I heard from my teacher that Obama is trying to pass a bill that will make a year of community service required.

Naturally, the class erupted into a whole "Obama more like OSAMA!!!" thing because of that.
Redneck schools are fun.

Also, I completely disagree with this.
Shorten the period, and maybe we'll talk.

EDIT: Also, how 'bout that Arizona **** going on?
Yeah...dick move, Arizona.

[HackersTotalMassLaser]

Yeah, what's happening in AZ is crap. They gave police the power to approach any Latino with no good reason other than them being Latino, and ask for proof of legality.

For me, that's like allowing the police to approach a black guy and ask them if they have stolen anything recently, just cause they're black.

Although I understand the latter in a way has been allowed under suspicion and that's it, the objectivity and discrimination in the former indeed riles up trouble and inconvenience.

[Archem]

By The Time I Get To Arizona...

[Zerlina]

What are you guys saying is happening? How can that possibly be legal? That sounds similar to the treatment of Chinese people with the head tax and citizenship papers up to the beginning of the 20th century...I thought we were past this.

[drenrin2120]

As far as what I've read and understand, Arizona passed a law allowing Police to pull over, or arrest anyone who does not have a valid ID, birth certificate or other means identifying them as a legal American citizen. There's also a part that allows the citizens of a town or city to sue their local law enforcement if they feel that the police are not enforcing this law harshly enough.

Putting the discrimination factor aside as one thing, the other thing is it's like Arizona completely ignored the fact that there are legal Mexicans working, attending colleges, and traveling in the U.S.

I know Mexico's got their issues, but paranoia over immigration and discrimination toward Mexicans and Mexico's competency as a country is outrageous.

I say we make it easier for people to immigrate to America. Closing our borders is ridiculous. There's plenty of land in America that could be developed, plenty of smart people from Mexico that could start businesses and create jobs. They're not gonna come here and steal all our jobs away. We've already lost half our jobs to China and India. Plus, by allowing immigrants to become citizens more easily, we'd be forcing companies and business owners to stop using illegal immigrants like ****ing slaves.

[Prpl_Mage]

Gotta love the US.
Nothing beats having paranoid/dumb rednecks controlling the masses.

[Phayre]

Definitely, we can't just disappear. "Oh hey guys! Isn't democracy COOL?! Yeah! Have fun with it. Bye now."
Doesn't really work. Then again there's that whole bit of overkill-- toppling a government of an already unstable country to take out a small extremist group-- that's always a great way to handle things. Not that Saddam should've stayed in power, but America has really no right to go in and /decide/ that. It's one thing to encourage an ongoing rebellion or revolution, but this approach of spoon-fed democracy has been proven many times to be ineffective.
There's never going to be "victory" or "completion" over there. It's eerily like Vietnam in that respect. Replace "communism" with "terrorists" and you're good to go.

[Bluhman]

Kind of makes me think of what would happen if the civil war had not been won.

I'd imagine the confederacy would be based on slavery, segregation, oil mining, and fail if it still existed. Of course, if it did, that means archem, valiere, ZKX, and I would be kind of in a weird spot.

[HackersTotalMassLaser]

As far as what I've read and understand, Arizona passed a law allowing Police to pull over, or arrest anyone who does not have a valid ID, birth certificate or other means identifying them as a legal American citizen. There's also a part that allows the citizens of a town or city to sue their local law enforcement if they feel that the police are not enforcing this law harshly enough.

Putting the discrimination factor aside as one thing, the other thing is it's like Arizona completely ignored the fact that there are legal Mexicans working, attending colleges, and traveling in the U.S.

I know Mexico's got their issues, but paranoia over immigration and discrimination toward Mexicans and Mexico's competency as a country is outrageous.

I say we make it easier for people to immigrate to America. Closing our borders is ridiculous. There's plenty of land in America that could be developed, plenty of smart people from Mexico that could start businesses and create jobs. They're not gonna come here and steal all our jobs away. We've already lost half our jobs to China and India. Plus, by allowing immigrants to become citizens more easily, we'd be forcing companies and business owners to stop using illegal immigrants like ****ing slaves.

Yeah man.

It isn't just mexicans but other Latino's as well. I had friends that are Cuban in AZ, and I've recently known that they were pulled over just because they were Latino.

It's stupid. Ignorant, and let's face it, racist.

[Ben]

ITT people act like racial profiling is only happening in AZ

At least here in canada the federal police (rcmp/mounties) dont sugar coat the fact that they profile. They admit to it quite openly.
And allthough it may be immoral, and wrong...it gets result

[SaiKar]

Countries have the right to enforce their borders. The fact is that a lot of southern states have a huge problem with illegal immigrants that work illegally off the books. Workers don't have to pay income taxes and companies don't have to pay insurance other taxes for having employers. It's against a huge number of laws, mostly involving tax laws. You and your parents pay higher taxes because illegal immigrants aren't paying anything at all. It's a bit of a cruel law in Arizona, but if an area that's losing the battle against illegal immigration, it makes a lot of sense.

I say we make it easier for people to immigrate to America. Closing our borders is ridiculous. There's plenty of land in America that could be developed, plenty of smart people from Mexico that could start businesses and create jobs. They're not gonna come here and steal all our jobs away. We've already lost half our jobs to China and India. Plus, by allowing immigrants to become citizens more easily, we'd be forcing companies and business owners to stop using illegal immigrants like ****ing slaves.

There is so much wrong with this that it sort of hurts, but basically:
1) the border isn't closed; people are just cheating the system because it's less expensive for them
2) American citizens make a lot more money than the average in other countries, such as Mexico, thus the illegal border crossings in the first place. Illegal immigrants don't want to settle new land and start businesses; they generally want to make a quick buck under the radar because it's more than they can make at home. Basically, yeah, they DO want to steal our jobs away
3) We're still in a recession; there aren't enough jobs for actual Americans right now across the board. Shouldn't be so willing to just give them away to immigrants.
4) Having an open border with Mexico wouldn't change the fact that more and more companies are outsourcing to countries like India to go after cheaper labor. If anything, it would speed up the process because Mexico is also a closer option for outsourcing that's still pretty close to US borders. So the US would lose additional market share in this instance.
5) Companies don't outsource to China because they want the cheap labor. They do it because a certain percentage of things sold in China need to be MADE in China and it's a country with a billion people, so it's worth going after the market share by building factories there. Fairly brilliant on China's part actually. Their economy will either overtake ours very soon or has already, depending on who you ask.

It's stupid. Ignorant, and let's face it, racist.

It's only one of those things - racist. It is, unfortunately. But it neither stupid nor ignorant. It would be stupid and ignorant to allow illegal immigrants to cheat the law the way they do. They are the ones crossing the border illegally to make money because American dollars are worth more and they're doing it without paying taxes. In no way is this acceptable and it's high time someone came up with a practical way to discourage the practice. I do feel bad for the actual legal citizens of the area that have to go through the hassle of being ID checked a lot, but sometimes there are solutions to problems where not everyone wins. They could always move up north farther from the border if they don't want the association.

[HackersTotalMassLaser]

I agree that countries have a right to do this, in fact I support that they do their best to get illegal immigrants out. But this is not how you go about it. If it's okay to do something racist because the law allows it, then this is no longer something smart, I don't know how it can be. There are more other methods in which this can be combated. What's pissing me off is not so much the idea of trying to get illegal immigrants out; that's indeed fine and well under the law. But automatically assuming I am illegal because I look Latino is unjustified and again, racist.

This is simply, not the way. I can easily in the future see the abusing power of police in some areas. Like the one I lived in before; 90% of Police officers ALREADY pulled you over for being Latino and on top mocked you cause of it. This isn't smart. It just isn't.

[Valiere]

He can't just pull them out, though. There would be extreme consequences. If you send troops somewhere, topple the government, start reworking the political structure, cause a lot of violence that most people can't really understand, and then you just leave, you're going to have a country full of people you did terrible stuff to and that you never made up for. The sad thing is, unless there's a miracle and somehow the country starts being self-sufficient and safe, America can probably never leave, since leaving looks like giving up. It'll just create more terrorists in the country since it'll create a generation of people who were fucked over by America then left to dry.

This is correct. I've read a few articles by people that did reporting in Iraq, and the general consensus seems to be that the second we pull out, the factions are going to rip each other apart. If I recall correctly, Obama does have a time frame for withdrawing from Iraq. But there's no way of knowing how long it's really going to take for Iraq to be stable. It's really a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation...and the only thing I can say is we wouldn't be in this mess if we'd never gone there to begin with. As a consequence, if it devolves into civil war, expect the right's attack dogs to tear into Obama for it, when it should never have been his problem in the first place.

And Phayre, remember that Afghanistan is a different ballgame than Iraq and always has been. Politicians across the spectrum generally supported invading Afghanistan, our allies supported invading Afghanistan. Iraq is where Bush overstepped. Presently, I hear the Taliban is making a bit of a comeback there, so maybe our work isn't entirely done.