New Rpgs : A rant

[Prpl_Mage]

So, you know what's bullshit? New rpgs.

Nah just kidding. Things are new gotta accept it.
It's just that the whole rpg business have evolved so that any game that have damage display on the screen and stats that can somehow be increased seem to count as an rpg.
I recently played Xenoblade chronicles, the Last story and FFXIII2 and it just hit me that I'm not doing that much.

It's a trend I started noticing after Star ocean and FFXII(12). Sure Square made kingdom hearts with AI party members but FFXII did it as an actual rpg.
Now I'm sure someone is going to object as say that there was the gambit system, which is true. I could shape my AI to do useful things that are otherwise tedious. Like buffing up Basch with bravery, haste, berserk, protect, shell, regen, reverse and decoy whenever he didn't have those. Grand thing. The gambit system was a good system I must admit. And FFXII allowed me to change the character I controlled. But the gambit system also allowed my controlled character to do what was right according to the gambit system. So in the end I mostly positioned myself in a good position during battles and let the AI do most of the work.
I bet I've already told ya all how I went downstairs and made myself a sandwich while fighting the final boss and returned to the tv and ate it while watching the game do all the work for me.
Anyway.

Star ocean till the end of time also had Ai controlled party members, you could give them different tactics on how they should use their skills and you decided what skills they had equipped.
But then came FFXIII where you only controlled one character at a time and everyone else did what was right for their current class. Changing classes in battle made them act differently since they used a new class. Problem was that if the main character died - it was game over. So it didn't matter that you had phoenix downs and raise. Also the AI tends to make stupid mistakes like using cure to heal up a character taking damage from poison instead of curing it with esuna to stop the decreasing.
Also, there was the Auto choice you could click which added the skills the AI would use if they were controlling that character.
Now, FFXIII2 lets you swap between the two human characters in battle whenever you want. But the whole class problem stays. What's the point in letting one of 2 main characters have the choice to be a medic when she totally sucks at it? She learns cure, curasa, esuna and raise. Not a single mass heal or any big heals, pathetic. Although I'm getting off-topic here. The AI does stupid things, always will do. Unless we're going Commander/ravager/sentinel the game will derp derp my life and do something stupid. Like the saboteurs spamming the same spell over and over instead of trying something that might actually work. Sentinels do provoke 5 times even though they succeeded the first one. Using the counter moves instead of steelguard that decreases physical damage taken ect ect. Also everything that's supposed to heal sucks in this game. The healing done isn't up to par with that the enemies can damage me. Still not on the topic though.

Then we have games like Dragon age that also count into the category of RPGs. You can switch between party members and actually order them to use certain skills / move to a certain place or hold position. There is also a system much like the FFXII gambit system where you add a condition, a target and a skill together and then a priority. But whenever you give the AI free control they will most likely screw up and get you killed.

And then recently I played Xenoblade chronicles. The battles are held on the "overworld", you can move around and you have skills that cost nothing but have long cooldowns. You only control one character and the others tries to act like good party members. "Tries" is the key word here, they tend to screw up. For example. I have a character with a lightning spell , and she got gear that increases the damage dealt by lightning spells by 200%. Yet, she does not use that lightning spell. The lightning spell will damage around 14k while the wind attack hits for 5k. Problem is that when she charges these spells nearby party member gets stat buffs. So instead of attacking she mostly charge spells and stand next to the other members. And when she actually attacks, she is more prone to use the worthless air spell. Then we have the main character, who got a "limit break" skill that allows all your party members to damage certain enemies that only he can hurt otherwise. Yet when we fight any of those enemies he will go all solo and spam other "limit break" skills and leave the remaining 2 characters worthless and unable to damage it.

And then the last story. Game is more like xenoblade than final fantasy at least (even though comparing things to final fantasy is losing it's validity these days.). You move around on the world map, you attack enemies there as well. To attack enemies just to walk towards them and the character will attack when close enough. You can use walls to do a wall jump-slash, you can use covers to do sneak attacks and you can use "gale"- a charge skill that diffuse magic circles cast by your mages. There are also bombs that can be deployed much like spells and a crossbow you aim with in first person to interrupt mages, shoot enemies, break objects or find out enemies weak points.
But in the single player mode you only control the main character. You can't even decide if he's gonna be a mage or not. You can give your party members orders but only when you have some TP gauge filled. And those commands are the following:
Skill 1, skill 2, skill 3, retreat to a healing circle. Skill 1 for mages is pretty much a spell and for the melee characters a status that makes it easier to get combo chains. Skill 2 for mages is some sort of alternative spell like reverse or heal. For the melee characters this is a taunting stance. Skill 3 is an ultimate spell for the mages and a dragoon jump attack for the melee attackers. Retreat means that they are returned to the closest healing field or healer.
Game is all fine and such but it's more of a stiff action game than dynamic rpg to me.

Which can be said about many games these days. They tend to cut out all the crap like random encounters, atb or turn based battles ect. These days we get to control one character in a dynamic world where the damage done is shown above the target's head, auto attack is a must and you mostly spend your time picking the skills to cast. I kinda miss the old days where you spend a whole bunch of times in battle planning your moves. Especially games like FFX.
So, do you recognize your own gaming experience in any of these or have you played any good ol' rpgs lately?

[Meiscool]

It is the trouble with going away from turn based battle systems.

[Grandy]

Disgaea's still turn-based, and IIRC, Persona 5 is not far away.

My problem with RPGs nowadays... no, my problem with Square Enix in specific nowadays, is how they seem to only be able to make Kingdom Hearts anymore.

You think you're playing Final Fantasy XIII. Nope! It's Kingdom Hearts! Same effects, same characters archetypes, same style of finishers and sound effects and and and AND I JUST WANT A NEW FF9 GODDAMNIT

[Ben]

There is a paradigm shift though here. You guys are looking to the big name developers for things that smaller browser dev are catered to these days. The big studios pay the HUGE teams they employ to created convoluted eye candy. It sells better. It makes more money.
If FF9 were remade, it wouldnt stand a chance these days. Linear story, and a hard-nosed combat mechanic... its simply not approachable by the bulk of todays console audience. Those old awesome games required a lot of work to start making the player feel god-like in terms of in-game power. Today they make games a bit easier and open ended in their worlds and battle mechanics, because frankly, its more of an immersion for an unfamiliar player.

Back in the day, an inexperienced gamer would pick up a FF title, and be like "holy how does this material system even work".
Now, we have Skyrim, where its instant immersion and the player think they are AWESOME at the game right off the bat. And then later on, is like "I should learn the finer points of this weapon system"

Its designed to make money quicker. Its just an evolution of the same thing over and over. Turn based games were made to deal with a technical limitation, and the adaption from table top RPGs to a digital format. You could have made FF6 a tabletop game that you could have played with friends like D&D, and it would be playable. Some 20 sided dice, and patience. You cant do that with todays physics based games. You would be rolling dice for a week before an action was finished.

/my 2 cents.

[Meiscool]

Some games do turn based systems amazingly though, like Eternal Sonata. I feel like turn based could be brought to players easily without forcing it to be like old FF titles.

[Prpl_Mage]

Some games do turn based systems amazingly though, like Eternal Sonata. I feel like turn based could be brought to players easily without forcing it to be like old FF titles.

I'm thinking Resonance of Fate and Valkyria chronicles. Although Valkyria chronicles isn't an rpg but rather a tactics game.

[Razor]

Not sure if it really counts as an RPG (there are mild elements) but have you play Legend of Grimrock? It's an old school dungeon crawler, I've seen comparisons to Dungeon Master thrown about a lot. It takes old school mechanics (for example, you move around in a grid) and gives them a slick graphical look.

It's also ****ing awesome. I would definitely recommend it. If you buy it (<$15US) from their site, you get a completely DRM free installer, and a code to get it on Steam as well.



Sales point aside, yes new games are pretty terrible. Didn't one of the most recent FF bomb miserably? One thing you'll notice with new FPS games is that they often have no (or very quick) respawn time in multiplayer. I know they said Halo 4 is going to make respawns instant, and this is to capture the COD crowd. COD's fast paced like that, you die, you respawn, you're back in. No waiting around or anything, the ADD crowd wouldn't like that.

What I am saying here is that everything is COD's fault, even though Unreal Tournament 99 had it so you would respawn as fast as you could click you mouse. Boo COD.



Jesus christ you two, I went to post, a new reply was posted. I read JIM's reply, went to post, a new reply was posted. I better be able to post this this time or else!
...I'll make a note of it.

PS: Buy Grimrock kgo

[HackersTotalMassLaser]

Turn based rpgs for me now adays have become boring if there's no change within the formula itself. However, i would like to see an FF13 esque turn base system. For some reason i think'd that be awesome.

But basically what Ben said. MONEY. You guys. MONEY.

[drenrin2120]

Yeah, I have to agree I don't enjoy turn-based as much as I used too. But there are ways too tweak it so it's more interesting.

And also, money. boooo

[Ben]

Something to ponder as well...

RPGs were made to fully immerse the player in a Role. A role Playing game. In its time, turn based systems were the best way to do this, whilst implementing a wide array of statistics into fluid gameplay. Now a days, to have a PROPER ROLE PLAYING game, turn based is in a sense coutner intuitive, if you think about it. You are better off at this point to call turn based games anything but a role playing game. TBRPG perhaps.

[ZeroKirbyX]

I'm honestly surprised Nippon Ichi is still in business. They don't have a single game you can pick up without getting ****ing lost.

Except Prinny. **** that game, **** it and its 1000 lives.

[Archem]

Not sure if it really counts as an RPG (there are mild elements) but have you play Legend of Grimrock? It's an old school dungeon crawler, I've seen comparisons to Dungeon Master thrown about a lot. It takes old school mechanics (for example, you move around in a grid) and gives them a slick graphical look.

It's also ****ing awesome. I would definitely recommend it. If you buy it (<$15US) from their site, you get a completely DRM free installer, and a code to get it on Steam as well.

[...]

PS: Buy Grimrock kgo

Someone's crushing pretty hard on the game. Anyway, I can vouch for the seal of approval. Grimrock rocks.

First: About the way RPGs are progressing: Money is a really "duh" point. Companies, especially the ones that have been doing this for years, are in it for the money. Innovation is something that RPGs need, but most innovations are really just making the games more accessible for a larger audience. More customers = more money. I get that, and (to an extent) I agree with it. Make a game easier to enjoy. Don't make me grind for ten hours just to fight the third boss, don't make me stumble through menus just to figure out where the hell my hi-potions are, don't make me get lost and forget what the hell I was supposed to be doing. Make exploration a fun element, with rewards for doing so, and plenty of opportunities to make up that needed EXP. Streamline menus to make it quick and painless to get what you need. Make sure not to get too convoluted with story and level design. Stuff like that.

Part Deux: Don't treat your customers like children. A lot of customers of a long-running series have been playing since the glory days of complex adventures. These are the people who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty with a deep RPG. Make sure that, even while you make the product approachable, you never forget that people want something more than a tunnel and a few monsters. Make large towns that can be navigated easily. Make deep dungeons with fairly-placed elements (save points, items, monsters, etc.). Make the game deep as hell, but don't require every player to take the plunge just to enjoy it.

Final Step: Ditch the overdone character archetypes, settings, and scenarios. What? Medieval kingdom with a mage, thief, warrior, and healer? Save the world from merciless villain? Lord help me, it's too familiar! Stop it. Give us a less obvious set-up. Make the characters a bit more human. Don't make a motivation-free almighty destroyer of worlds as the antagonist. Mix it up. Take a few chances. Hell, try a new and interesting battle system (thank you, Eternal Sonata). Just don't keep doing the same thing until the end of time. When you keep stripping away the parts people look forward to, and just leave the core unchanged, the genre sours. It's like corn, only without the kernels, but there's glitter and neon lights all over the cob. It looks cool, but there's nothing left of the corn you used to love.

[Moosetroop11]

Which is ironic because FF13 was about as corny as you could get...

[Prpl_Mage]

Which is ironic because FF13 was about as corny as you could get...

That was aimed at HTML?

Also I agree with Archem on the menu thing. Nothing I hate more than having to shuffle through pages of items / skills/ quest entries / maps to find what I'm looking for. Being able to sort items by different categories is a blessing upon the world.

[Moosetroop11]

No, sorry it was in response to Archem's last post. tl,dr? :p