Bonk Bonk Bonk!

[Robotam Plus]

Mind if I lock this topic here? I don't think there's much more to discuss.
The system stays, end of discussion.

If another mod thinks differently about locking this, you're free to open it again.

[Alex]

Oh yes, i want to reopen this.
Hello world!

As all of you know, i returned to made this BONK think.
I am out of forums, so i simply did what the actual staff asked me as a developer.
Not being active here gives me no way to judge anything, but on the other hand it gives me the objectiveness of a "tourist in visit to Charas City".

It seems incredible: 9 (NINE!) pages, and maybe only 2 or 3 are on topic and useful.
I read them all, brrrrrr....
Many ppls are referring to Charas as a sort of lager, with horrible restrictions, no democracy, the worst place on the internet.
Well, some simple considerations:

1 - THE LAGER

It really seems no one of you ever visited a so called "serious" forum. IF we're so terrible here, i'm afraid there are no words in any vocabulary for them.
The alert/ban tools staff has now are:

- BONK
Can be performed by any member of the staff. Its main purpose is to give a warn.
Not something to discuss about, but simply an alert in the form "someone thinks you're risking to act out of the lines".
This system should not be abused by staff members, as if you are performing a REALLY weird action... well, one of the bans will be your deserved destiny.
A bonk expires into itself: it will be shown only once, but it will be SURELY seen by you.
That's the point: a warning message we want to be sure you'll read.
Bonk is just a fun name for this, name it as you wish.

- PM
Same as bonk, but the sending staff member thinks you may want to reply.
THIS IS WHAT A STAFF MEMBER WILL USE IN CASE OF DISCUSSABLE THINGS.
If he used a bonk, it simply means you had a friendly voice telling you "better to be quiter on this..."

- ALMOST BAN
All of you knows, its simply a sort of restricted membership. Can be done only by admins.

- BAN and IPBAN
Well, this is clear. Can be done only by admins too.

Now...
Out of 4 systems, only BAN is really stopping all of your rights.
Can you tell me if there's another place where you can be warned with 3 different methods?
Nope. Generally, in the internet, you'll only get 1 PM (maybe) and DIRECLY a ban.
If you still think the lager is here.....

2 - NO DEMOCRACY

Unfortunatly not everyone of you were here in the first year of this forum.
At that time everything was different, everything was done asking to members.
But honestly... there are more than 25400 users, and evenif not all of them posts here, MUCH MORE users than first year are here.
If we want to avoid chaos, something has to be done.
Yes, there are rules. But rules alone are ok only if each member will respect them.
While few ppls, that was so. When the community started to grow, no more.
Now we need to be severe with rules, and sometimes it's needed to use an "iron glove".

Just imagine full freedom here: do you really think no one would abuse of it?
But as you know, if you behave within the lines, nothing will happen to you.
Just as in real world.

3 - THE WORST PLACE

This, IMHO, is the funnier part!
It seems so many ppls thinks this place is horrible, terrific, facist...
And all of them generally menace to go somewhere else.
My simple question is: who's stopping you?
BTW: if you're going to reply insulting me for this, then probably i hitted you
If you're not, then you're smart enough to understand what i really ment.



At the end, there's not much to add here.
Everything we had to say about all of this was really well explained by Osmose and SaiKar in their posts here:
http://charas-project.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=18317&forumid=12&catid=6&page=6

Please avoid flames on stupid things like "the bonk shoud have the sender name".
The bonk is MADE not to show you the name, as there are the PMs for named messages.
The bonk is simply a funny way to alert. If no bonk, then probably directly ban.
Consider it as a friendly voice alerting you about something.

If this is not ok for you, then probably you're afraid thay will be USED with you.
And if you want to know the name, this means you want to reply also to an alert.
Well, in a 25400+ users system, this would mean chaos. So no name, it's the bonk!

Oh, BTW: maybe we will also do something for you to see who was bonked and how many times.
Who knows, maybe we will also make public access to bonks messages themselves, which will show the entire world what the staff told to you. So the staff is warned (they can't abuse of this), but you will have no chance to say they bonked you unfairly. But this is up to be. As of now, only who has access to the database (which means only ME) can see all sent bonks texts. And as far i can see, they were not abused at all, and the messages was fully motivated.

So be constructive, and don't be afraid of ghosts. Also please, don't CREATE ghosts.
If you wish to reply here please do, but show you can do more than flaming.

Finally, Robotam (or every other Admin/Mod), if this thread will turn into flames only replies feel free to relock it definitively.

BONKBONK!

[Meiscool-2]

Provides good points, but it was better off locked IMO.

[Archem]

OMG Alex! This thread visit was SO worth it now...

Alex IS the rarest pokemon, after all.

[Kijuki_Magazaki]

You have no idea how uplifting it feels you post. An easyness of actual being able to discuss without feeling the shadow of someone is going to tell you to stop it... feels good.

Most of the stuff you said it's true, very true. However it doesn't mean I won't disagree with some aspects, and it's not directly with what you have stated. How can you disagree with the truth? Well depends on how you place  or express this truth. Up to this point none of the staff had said this:

maybe we will also do something for you to see who was bonked and how many times.
Who knows, maybe we will also make public access to bonks messages themselves, which will show the entire world what the staff told to you. So the staff is warned (they can't abuse of this), but you will have no chance to say they bonked you unfairly. But this is up to be. As of now, only who has access to the database (which means only ME) can see all sent bonks texts. And as far i can see, they were not abused at all, and the messages was fully motivated."

That is WAY much better than what mods so far have said such as; "We dont care what you say", "nothing will change", "You are suggestions are wrong"

Why? (and this specificly what I always felt it should be); you are warning mods as well, you are portraying mods with what they are supposed to do, not with what they feel from their personal feelings.

No body wants full freedom. But we want some freedom with perspective, freedom to suggest, and not being told to shut up, specially when you are not flaming. And for these freedoms and walls to affect the staff as well.

I have seen hostility from most of the staff head including administration, and they deny it, or they say it's because I am opposing a threat. A threat to what? Don't know, they know I am not the kind that would actually do things against the rules, yet the pure mention of suggesting something with voice, seems to be a perfect target for them to say they wont mind what I am saying.

Rules...

Some of them the mods just expect newcomers to know. They are not posted and the ones that are, are very outdated. It serves no good for the administration to say "We know the rules full and through, and so does him, him, him and her", if there's no actual typed and CURRENT documented evidence of the rules. Sure there are links around with subforums, but those rules have become outdated, and some of them are barely followed anymore, while other are too strictly being enforced.

The fear here isn't that it will be used against me for something I do, but rather a fear of misuse and abuse. Sincerely I am quite surprised I haven't gotten bonked, since last time I raised my voice my title when on yellow, after that no seeming action was taken on anybody, when it was promised that fairness would follow.

I don't really care about democracy. I don't even really think i understand the *full* extent of the word. But I do understand the word fairness. I have noticed that many users tend to flame against something stablished and being punished, while a member tries to insult another member and one of the mods picks up the insult and we see nothing being done about the mod, but we get the member scorned.

The only thing I been picky on in here recently has been this:

- The staff is openly disregarding in a rude manner suggestions and critics from the community. (this can be seen in this thread)
- Mods appear to have a special tag other than modship, that makes some of the rules obsolete to them, wheter or not they seem to know it. (if you look hard enough, you can also find it here)
- I see a vast lack of communication between members and the staff about the community. I don't imply fascism, but rather an ugly case of thinking one with power may think better than the one without it.
- Some of the 'rules' seem to have special exceptions for the staff members, such as allowing insults for the whole purpose of having good laughs.

About 4-5 months (around the time of the troll invasion) ago I posted a rant about how the staff and community should communicate.  As granted, there were people that disagreed with what I had to say, but as I remember more people seemed positive about it than not.

Sure, I think the system isn't going work out as well as its being intended. However that does not mean it wasn't meant for good, and it does not mean because I think it "sucks" (and I elaborated why before) that I should be disregarded, such was the way it happened.

Like you that has been gone for a while you had to make a voice, its most partially the same feeling with me. Except that I had left at first  because I wanted the staff to hear me, and at least say "yes ok, we'll try" than "shut up we don't need you". And it's only at times like these that I feel the opportunity to speak my mind and see if there's a change, and gladly I see a little light somewhere.

The staff has to know that not everyone can be wrong, and we all cannot be right, including the staff. The staff can only do what it cans to help, and not decide by completely themselves if something will work right or wrong, in reference to taking ear into what the community says, at least the well spoke community.

The same way mods and people will disagree with me, and I have to take it, it's the same with them; they should be able to take it, and have not turn to the member with agression, or some kind of witty attitude.

With that in mind, I hope you read Alex, for this has been read over time and disregarded, but I know you are about the only one that can tell me in a good manner a  good "right" and "wrong", and not just shun me for wanting to say something. No, I am not a victim, but I am watched closely for some reason, and this might why.

And yes it's the internet, you can take importance or you cannot; there's a reason why there are supposed to be rules; Control and management, and a good place for most.

[I Have a Sandwich]

Ah, Alex. Your fractured english makes the most sense of any of us.

[Revolution911]

I  S A I D  N O  M O R E  F L A M I N G  H E R E!

Consider this a public bonk, if you like.
Do not force me to lock this thread again.
Btw: nice to see you're still here, rev!

[MrMister]

SAME AS REV.
please.

You have the whole forum for this, leave this thread alone

mrmister agen: We have a different definition of 'flame,' I think. I didn't mean any disrespekk in this post. Why don't you love me :(

[Revolution911]

Gotchya, holmes. And Yo, yep, I still dwell around thee parts.

[SaiKar]

Hmph. Admin or not, bringing on 10 more pages of arguments or not, I have to say it.

Kijuki, I tire of your accusations of power abuse. If I wanted to I could have banned you weeks ago, and I would have been able to make a strong case that it wasn't an abuse. You've become akin to Raffles now, a carrion crow that follows Charas around and pours salt on is wounds. The only difference is that Raffles KNEW he was trolling and didn't believe a word he was saying. All you do is wait for something to happen and jump in with a "AHA! My predictions of doom are coming true!" You tell us to shape up, but it is you who offers no concrete ideas and vanishes for weeks at a time, only springing up when there is some issue for you to grind into the ground.

Seriously, leave Kijuki. You turned from a great member of the community to its cancer. You don't want to cooperate with the staff. You aren't interested in being a content normal member. You want changes and don't care if you make this place unfun for everyone else. The staff is sick of it, the rest of the members say your little revolution sucks. Find another forum to troll.

You accuse of of being rude. I accuse YOU of being rude. You and other vocal members that for some bizzare reason have to make a big deal about everything. Listen up. Just because you guys have an idea and we don't like it, this doesn't mean you're being ignored. It means we think it's a bad idea. The staff listens to your input (otherwise this wouldn't be a 10 page thread!) but we are under NO obligation to bow to your whims if we think they aren't good ideas. Several people around here are bullying my staff into corners with nonsense about democracy and freedom. As Alex said, we're very soft here. Nobody has gotten banned over this bloody debate. The damn thread is still open. And you DARE accuse us of being tyrannical and rude?!

I have had it about up to here with certain people. You don't like how this place is run? You want to stir up trouble about a feature that ONLY AFFECTS PEOPLE THAT STIR UP TROUBLE?! As Alex said, if you have so dark of an opinion of this place, leave now. Go on, find your so-called better forums and leave the rest of us to talk about RPGMaker stuff in peace. It's getting to the point where I wonder if just shutting the whole place down would be a better move than continuing this dance.

[coreystranick]

wait, I thought Osmose was only a mod so he could work and clear up the community game threads and such.

[charaman]

some people are so petty. smile !

[Cosmos]

Ok, look I'm gonna close this for an hour or so (if I'm not around, razor or Harvey can open it), Also, that emo thing was started by you without saying anything people said you were emo because of the avatar. Now hopefully later everyone can be a little less mods suck members want better forums because everyone fails to realize that ya'll taking shyte for granted. Charas may not always be around, when it's gone ya'll are gonna miss it some. You all know that we're behind the times compared to most forums, ya'll know that we DO listen. Some of the mods may give off that I dun care aura, but the rest of us do care. If we didn't, then ppl like Raffles would still be around. So please, grow up.

Also, I didn't delete you're comment. Just so you know,  

[Cosmos]

Kay, unlocked. Be good.

[Meiscool-2]

STOP LOCKING AND UNLOCKING.

YOU'RE LIKE MY LOCKER. MY LOCKER IS A WHORE! SHE LETS ME PUT STUFF IN HER AND NEVER CLOSES RIGHT. QUIT.